Unknown debris in chamber- W231 / 45 acp

I am still waiting on a response from Winchester. 
With both lead and jacketed at 710 f/s I get large (think coarse ground salt) granules of something pretty heavily distributed all through the open action of my 45 after only 20-30 rounds.  It is the color of straw which seems really odd.  I've only experienced unburnt powder as looking like unburnt powder. And we generally consider "dirty" powders as those leaving large amounts of black soot.  This is different than both.  Is it just the nature of 231 with light loads?  Manuals go 2-4 full additional grains which yield speeds over 900 so maybe this powder needs more chamber pressure to keep everything exiting the barrel?  I suspect this because my fast loads out of a 9mm with 231 leave no such debris.  If I'm right then anyone who has ever tried 231 in their 45 at softball speeds should have seen the same thing.  Experienced responses are appreciated. 
Ed


PS:  Is anyone going to be at the 1800 in Boyertown, PA this Saturday?

I have seen a little of the same thing with 231 in lightly loaded 9mm, I had it happen in 45acp with WST as well. 

I assumed I was either loading too light or not enough crimp but I switched Back to Bullseye, so I’m not sure.

Are your cases blackened as well? I had the debris/blackened cases with too light of loads with 231. After upping the powder charge everything worked out.

You don't say what charge and bullet, with 231, it matters.

In 45 with 200 swc h&g68 design, l get some minor debris at 4.2 that improves at 4.6. 180 swc 68 design are too light and too far out of the case for that powder, unless you use the short button nose h&g130 design that seats a lot deeper in the case. Those are good at 4.2
Good luck

Same as you Bruce; 4.2 with some improvement at 4.5.  (I don't usually post charges as they are misleading.  Velocity is I think more useful in troubleshooting).  I am using the H&G 68 in the 200 gr lswc.  I wouldn't just start cranking up velocity and recoil just to make a load shoot cleaner (especially if it is grouping fine at the slower speeds). 

I can hang on to it until I can cast up some #130's which should fill the case some more, but honestly I'd rather not have to really work at finding a use for this powder. I am open to offers if anyone is going to be at Boyertown this Saturday and wants to buy about seven pounds of an eight pound keg of 231.  Either buy it or swap it for Clays or Bullseye.  Send me a pm and we'll chat.

Seen that with lite WST loads. A bit more crimp helped a lot. 185 swaged swc's.

Lately I've been fooling with e3. It seems a bit better at low charges. Started off at 3.2gr under 185 coated and it seemed a bit hot, sorry no chronograph. Loaded up another test batch with 2.9gr to test next week.
Getting down to what I think is low stock on BE so I'm exploring a bit. No big deal for me as I don't compete, just another old dude with arthritis having fun.

I have seen the same issue with WST also.  Never as bad before, only the latest container bought 2 years ago. 3.4 and 3.5 gr. loads for 185 and 200 grain lead swc and FED primers. Changed the crimp from .468 to .463 and debris greatly reduced. Loads with 3.8 grains and above displayed little or none. Also noted that when I started using the latest container I had to slightly increase charge volume to get the same charge weight.

Al

AK41: Don't use Federal primers with WST and your troubles will be gone

Bruce I agree with that.  After 19 years of using FED with the light loads and no problems the last 2 cases of them have been showing the issue.  When I went to slide mount versus irons the load was increased to 3.8 gr.  No issues, Fed recoil pulse felt same as WLP primers. Recently tried frame mount and issue reappeared.  WLP does ignite light loads much better. Need to use up 3k of FED before I will go to WLP. In the mean time just converted back to slide mount.
Al

I like Federal but they're not hot enough for WST. That's also from a well known gunsmith.

Guess I will be trying some Titegroup and BE loads. Takes me about 4.5 months to use 3k primers. Gives me time to find some more WLP. Thanks for the input and insight.
Al

It is unburnt powder. Powder combustion is never 100% efficient, faster burning powders tend to burn more completely but they do it by having a sharper pressure curve and hotter combustion. Raise the pressure and raise the combustion temperatures in the case, and the number of unburnt particles will decrease.

Neither of those is a particular win-win. Heat is bad, and higher pressures are bad.

Virtually all powders work best when operating at or near maximum charges. As Bullseye shooters, we are looking for accuracy at much lower velocity.
To that end, some powders just do better than others. Faster will generally leave less residue behind. W231/HP38 are not really fast enough not to leave stuff behind.
The absolute cleanest powder I've ever used is VV N320. My next best has been Alliant Sport Pistol. 
Sport Pistol will be fairly clean at lower charges. I'm currently shooting 200SWC over 4.5 grns.
Good luck with Winchester contacting you.