Changing recoil springs

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Changing recoil springs

Post by Bill Treanor on Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:16 pm

Is it legal in CMP leg matches to change out the recoil spring when moving from the long line to the short line?

Thanks!

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Dr.Don on Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:24 pm

Why would you want to do that, unless you are shooting softer loads at the short line?  The whole concept and spirit of EIC leg matches is that you shoot them with full power ammo.  When I did it we were issued 45 match hardball on the line and had to shoot what they issued.  Or have I missed your point?

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DavidR on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:30 pm

Well im sure his point is to shoot softball at the short line but I would say No, once your gun is inspected and weighed and approved it is not to be messed with.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by spursnguns on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:08 pm

Several years ago; I attended a leg match where a competitor's gun had to be torn down to remove a defective magazine.  It had to be re-approved/re-certified.

Jim

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:01 am

Most of the shooters I know shoot lighter hardball loads at the short line.     I personally would not want to be changing out a spring during the middle of  a match.   I think it would be legal however because the only thing they check on the line is actually legal trigger weight.  The gun still has to visually conform to a match legal leg gun, but the spring is an internal part, with no weight rule applied to it that I am aware of.  

      It is possible to tune your loads without changing out the spring before sustained fire.  You can generally drop down three to four tenths of a grain, and still get the gun to function,   You might lighten your spring a little if your long line loads don't  seem to be maxing out the spring. ( You will physically feel the slide hit the back of the frame if your spring is too weak. ) Then you can find a nice balance between  accuracy and still get good functioning.  

   Of course, if recoil is a huge issue for you.   Get a Beretta.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Dr.Don on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:25 am

I guess if this kind of stuff is allowed, getting Distinguished doesn't mean what it used to.  I'm glad I got mine in the days when it was 45 hardball only and tightly controlled.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:00 am

Dr.Don wrote:I guess if this kind of stuff is allowed, getting Distinguished doesn't mean what it used to.  I'm glad I got mine in the days when it was 45 hardball only and tightly controlled.


In the end,  you still have to win against other competitors, and you can't become distinguised without a hard LEG, (eight or ten points) which means you can't drive around the country looking for matches with no real competition where a 220 will get you six points, and ever expect to become distinguished.  

    The Beretta is a tougher gun to shoot well in some respects than the 45 is.  The double stack grip makes your  .45 Wad gun less valuable as a training tool.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:17 am

Its not allowed, you might lie and say the gun has a problem and you need to change one and get by with it, but if your willing to do that to compete then you have lost all vision of what these matches stand for.  Put a 50cent recoil buffer in it and a 15lb spring and it will shoot hard or soft ball just fine.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:23 am

DavidR wrote:Its not allowed, you might lie and say the gun has a problem and you need to change one and get by with it, but if your willing to do that to compete then you have lost all vision of what these matches stand for.  Put a 50cent recoil buffer in it and a 15lb spring and it will shoot hard or soft ball just fine.

Would you mind posting the relevent section of the CMP rules?    I find it entirely plausible that it is not allowed, but it would be nice to know where it is stated, in case this question comes up again, as it will.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:14 pm

Here is a link to the rules, http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf  Best solution to this  is to direct your question to the CMP and they will provide the answer.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Schaumannk on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:50 pm

DavidR wrote:Here is a link to the rules, http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf  Best solution to this  is to direct your question to the CMP and they will provide the answer.


I actually ran a word search on the linked document and came up with about six references to spring,  almost all as part of mainspring housing.   

It is illegal to swap out an upper on a Service Rifle, but I saw no rule regarding the spring or guide rod in a service pistol.  Hard to prove a negative, and if you ask the CMP, they will probably just search  the document, as I did.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Well lets just ask them.... I sent the CMP Competitions dept. this question, i will post the answer if they reply.




"Is it legal or allowed to change out a recoil spring in a hardball gun during the match between the long line target and moving to the shortline? "

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by xringshooter on Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:40 pm

I have a 16.5 lb Wolff spring in my hardball pistol. I load 5.2 grains of Bullseye for the 50 yard line, and 4.1 grains of the same for the 25 yard line.  Both loads are with 230 grain FMJ round nose bullets. Both of these work flawlessly in my 1911 accurized by Clark. Also, there is no sight adjustment needed when going from the long to the short line.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DRNurse1 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:57 pm

xringshooter wrote:I have a 16.5 lb Wolff spring in my hardball pistol. I load 5.2 grains of Bullseye for the 50 yard line, and 4.1 grains of the same for the 25 yard line.  Both loads are with 230 grain FMJ round nose bullets. Both of these work flawlessly in my 1911 accurized by Clark. Also, there is no sight adjustment needed when going from the long to the short line.

 I need 4.5 of Bullseye to attain the 830 FPS needed, or is there no longer a minimum velocity requirement?

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by Al on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:37 am

DRNurse1,
No longer any minimum velocity requirements.  As long as its a 230 gr RN FMJ bullet you're good to go.  Although to get hardball to shoot well @ 50 yards you pretty much have to get up to 820+.  Short line can be any velocity you like that groups well with the same bullet.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DRNurse1 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:47 pm

@ Al: Than-Q

 @ DaveR: Any feedback fro CMP? I do not think changing internal parts is in the spirit of the match, but there may be no rule stating so.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DavidR on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:33 pm

They never answered but its also their busy time with all the matches going on.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DeweyHales on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:48 pm

Dr.Don wrote:I guess if this kind of stuff is allowed, getting Distinguished doesn't mean what it used to.  I'm glad I got mine in the days when it was 45 hardball only and tightly controlled.

 It sounds like you are belittling every person that has earned a badge since the ammo stopped being issued.  I hope that isn't the case. 

Hardball guns bear as much resemblance to issue guns as NASCARs bear to showroom automobiles.  I'd be surprised if a hardball gun has ever stormed a beach.  I guarantee no hardball Beretta has ever seen combat.   

The general issue gun is now the M9.  It would be great if we could get ammo issued.  But, I doubt your .45 would fire it.

I have shot the M9 and the M1911 a lot in hardball matches.  If you can leg with the M9, you can leg with the M1911.  I actually think the M1911 has the much easier trigger to control in sustained fire. 
If you can leg with softball, you can leg with full power ammo.  A gun with the right recoil spring absorbs much of the recoil.  Many shooters have recoil springs that are too light. 

My major concern for shooters that shoot a lot of hardball is tendonitis.  I got it while working on the USMC workbook with a can of 9mm.  It takes a long time to get over tendonitis.   
 
The trick to legging isn't what gun or ammo you use.  The trick is becoming proficient with irons and knowing your zeros.

It would be great if we could get at least 16 shooters to matches.  That way, we could actually award some hard legs.  That's the true hurdle to legging out. 

Earlier this year, I shot at Quantico in the All Navy East matches.  My score beat the top Navy shooter by seven points.  I got bronze.  He got gold.  That's the breaks. 

Legging out means that a shooter has earned 30 points in EIC matches with at least one 8 or 10 point award.  There's no mention of recoil springs or minimum required velocity etc.  You still have to be in the top 10%.  No one will ever earn a hard leg at a match without being a fine shot compared to his peers.  You could set all the gear rules as strict as you wanted, and the same guys would be at the top of the leader board.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by DeweyHales on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:53 pm

DRNurse1 wrote:
xringshooter wrote:I have a 16.5 lb Wolff spring in my hardball pistol. I load 5.2 grains of Bullseye for the 50 yard line, and 4.1 grains of the same for the 25 yard line.  Both loads are with 230 grain FMJ round nose bullets. Both of these work flawlessly in my 1911 accurized by Clark. Also, there is no sight adjustment needed when going from the long to the short line.

 I need 4.5 of Bullseye to attain the 830 FPS needed, or is there no longer a minimum velocity requirement?

 There is no minimum velocity required.  You may find that your gun shoots well at another velocity.

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Re: Changing recoil springs

Post by JLK on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:59 pm

I legged out in 2004.  I was in and out of the sport over the years it took me to finally get it.
I'm proud my first leg was 10 points in 1990 at Camp Perry with ammunition issued on the line.
When I finally got back in to shooting I did a LOT of machine resting with my Service Pistol.
For 50 yds using the Sierra 4515 bullet I had to get it going over 800fps to get decent groups.
...so much for "softball".
At 25 yds just about anything will work.
Good luck and stay at it!!!
JLK

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