Irons vs Dot For Accuracy

First topic message reminder :

Assuming a shooter has good vision to see both well, which has the higher ceiling, irons or dot?

Discuss!

And I cleaned my first short line targets, timed and rapid fire, with a .45 at a match when it was raining so hard I could barely even make out which target was mine at 25 yards.  I was shooting open sights and finally learned that the target really didn't matter that much.  The front sight and holding on to that wet .45 meant a whole lot more towards getting 10s and Xs. 

CR

CR10X wrote:.........An secondly, why not go shoot in the rain?  If its on the training outline, then do it if at all possible. Everything can teach us something, even if its only "let's not do this again if we do survive it this time"......

Actually, that's not what I meant.  I have no issues with shooting in the rain - I'm in a covered area, so I don't get wet, and if my target is too wet to shoot at, there are steel plates.

The reason is that I hate to drive on the expressway to and from the range, because I'm in a small Mazda MX-5 and the car is so low, it's difficult to see through all the spray being thrown up by the other cars.  If the roads flood, as we are constantly warned they might, I'm better off staying home.  Miami and much of South Florida have a huge problem with roads flooding.  Back when I had my Land Rover, heavy rain wasn't even an annoyance.  I miss that car.....

If, as has happened in the past, it rains so hard that the grassy field in front of the shooters floods, we're supposed to stop shooting, so rounds don't ricochet.  

If the rain was anything like the videos of I've watched of Camp Perry, and everyone and their gear was getting soaked,  I would rather not be out there.  Hey, I just posted a video Dave Salyer sent me last night, of a match the got rained out.  I guess they all took a vote, and decided to call it a day.  

If you watched the video, and if you had been there, would you have voted to call it a day, or continue?

mikemyers wrote:I now expect to put ten holes in the 10-ring tomorrow with the B-8 target at 15 yards, one handed.

In your copy of Basham's book he provides direction on how to set and track toward attainment goals. 

I'm still early in the practice but with my performance goals I like to use "I'm the type of guy. " Here's an example that is not at all about competing with others or even holding the gun: "I'm the type of guy who is never caught without a gun because my dot's out of batteries." I first solved by buying batteries in bulk, then bought new pistols or slides in irons for my ones with dots to really put that worry to bed.

I think you wrote the above quote in frustrated sarcasm. This is not an exercise in lying to yourself. I think you're the kind of guy who can shoot a B16 at 25 yards with one hand with your 45s and keep all 10 rings in the scoring rings. And once you see you can do it, first once or twice, then becoming the norm you might be the kind of guy who can do it almost every time. 

When I wrote you that I progressed from hoping to shoot sharpshooter to expecting (lazy term, not intentional) to shoot expert in the last 2 years, I didn't mean just trying to think differently; it's reflected in my scores. I started with being the type of guy who can fire 10 shots at a B16@25 and not be able to see them without my spotting scope. Then I realized I'm the type of guy who can do that not just occasionally but with most of my targets. Eventually I became the guy who could shoot a few for fun (early discharges on reset) and still make 270 (NMC). Frankly I feel like my subconscious is so capable that I'm excited to see where it can take my shooting career if my conscious mind gives it the opportunity by keeping up with training and taking care of my body. 

(Just my 2c as a junior shooter passionate about improving)

SingleActionAndrew wrote:I believe one of the articles in that Shooter's Treasury speaks to only applying pressure to the grips forward and back, with strongest pressure at middle finger and perhaps no pressure with pinky. If using that approach then yes your finger tips wouldn't be white and you can put your thumb wherever comfortable

Have you read With Winning in Mind? It's often entertaining or heartwarming and is helping me (3rd time through and using the journal with my physical recovery toward shooting a particular 2700 and two EICs this August) bring together the ideas across Inner Game of Tennis, Golf is Not a game of Perfect, and the wealth of guidance available from the membership on this forum. The idea that our subconscious will seek to bring your performance in line with your own self image is one of many interesting ideas inside........

I don't feel like starting yet another discussion on books, but have you (or others) read "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control, & The Big Lie" by M/Sgt Jim Owens, USMC (Ret.)?

The little that I've read so far seems to fit with things I've been reading in this forum.  I bought the book some time ago, and I need to read through the rest of it.  It's mostly written for rifle shooters, but it applies to handgun steel sights as well.  Someone here recommended it to me, but it's been so long I can't remember who.  Maybe there is a list here of useful books - if so, I can add a few titles.

Just research and read the Fundamentals section here. There is an amazing amount of information here posted by people that know what they are talking about from positive thinking to sight alignment to trigger control.

An example is the excellent information offered in this thread.

It's even better now with the addition of "Similar Topics" below the posts.

After reading this thread I parked the dots and dug out the iron sights. Shot a Beretta 92 and a 1911 today )one handed, of course)and have been making huge progress just with the info here in this thread.

Here is an outline for a hypothetical trip to the range for me.

I can shoot 10's every time I follow my shot process.
I shoot my best shots as I am approaching my minimum wobble area.

Today I will work on improving the timing of my trigger operation to coincide with the time I am approaching the minimum wobble area.
I will complete my exercise / cardio workout first.  
Then rest for 1 hour prior to shooting.
 
At the range today I will train with the following process and focus:

I know that it takes me approximately 3 seconds to settle into the black from the ready position.
I have noted my minimum wobble is usually between 2 and 4 seconds after settling into the black.
  
At the range:
 
I will dryfire first to confirm the feeling of my entire shot process - 10 to 20 times as needed.  
Focus thought, feel the flow of the entire shot process.

Training will be:

Set timer to 9 seconds
Assume ready position, start timer and raise to target.
Focus thought: begin the the trigger pressure as soon as the sights / dot are approaching the aiming area and apply continuous increasing pressure.
If the shot completes before the buzzer goes off, tally one complete exercise for trigger timing.
If the timer goes off, abort the shot and tally one complete exercise for correctly aborting the shot.

It the shot was aborted, complete the process above dryfiring only for 10 repetitions (no tally for dryfiring reps)

Time limit will be 15 minutes, then rest 5 minutes.
Review tally, physical and mental feelings after the set. 
Record in journal.
If feeling positive, complete another repetition to a max of 4 or total time of 1 hour, 20 minutes max. 
If shot process does not feel positive, recap and identify source of feelings. 

I can shoot 10s every time I follow my shot process.  

CR

CR10X wrote:Here is an outline for a hypothetical trip to the range for me.........

Thank you for posting that.  A few of those things I can relate to.  Maybe eventually I will be able to at least try what you wrote.



I got to the range mid-day.  I spent an hour or so with the fellow who I feel is the best revolver shooter at our club.  Having cleaned my Model 17-5 Sunday, I asked him to look it over. He thought it was in pretty good shape.  He then fired 5 rounds with his hands supported by one of the boards that holds up the roof - he had his fingers, knuckles and thumb, up against the board, and he got a tight group for four of them, with one off to the side.  He feels my gun is fine.  More on this gun later, that was not the purpose for my going to the range.

I put up two B-8 targets side by side, and with the Baer, started shooting, loading one, two, or three rounds into a magazine until I had 10 holes in the black.  I shot just the way I dry-fired over the weekend, but my hands, and especially my fingers, felt way too "tense".  Nothing was relaxed.  For the other target, I loaded 5 rounds and shot two-handed, then loaded five more and repeated.  

For one-handed, I felt the resulting target is about what I'm capable of right now.  I predicted I would get all ten rounds into the 10-ring - well, I got all but four.

The target at the left taught me something I will remember from now on.  I suspect that I don't yet grip the gun exactly the same, even though I try to, which is why I got two groups of 5 rounds.  From now on, I will load five rounds in two magazines, and after shooting the first 5 rounds, drop the magazine and insert the second mag, without removing the gun from my shooting hand.  I've never been good enough to recognize this before.




Cecil, regarding what you wrote, how many years did it take you before you could reliably shoot 10's "every time you follow your shot process".

What CrankyThunder taught me to do, was "watch the dot, wait for the bang".  I'm still mostly doing that, waiting until everything stabilizes, and then adding more and more pressure to the trigger until the gun fires.  By then, my sight picture seems stable, but if I wait too long and notice the wobble increasing, I stop, and start all over again probably 15 seconds later - I never timed this.  That rarely happens - as I'm adding pressure, normally the gun fires almost unexpectedly, -OR- (not so much any more) it fires because I make it fire - but every time that happens, I regret it.  

You do exercise and cardio workout before shooting?????   ....and then wait for an hour before shooting?

(I've always thought dry-firing for ten minutes or so before shooting was all I needed to do.....)

"Focus thought, feel the flow of the entire shot process."    ......Something else I never thought of doing.


Just one question - did you learn to do all this on your own, or did you have a tutor?

edit

Mike, I think you misunderstand. Cecil's statement has nothing to do with ability. It has everything to do with state of mind. It is a belief, held so strongly that it becomes truth.

Dave

BTW, Cecil, thank you for that post. I've had trouble lately with the consistency of my shot process between dry fire and live. This range trip sounds like a wonderful training session.

Dave

Dcforman wrote:Mike, I think you misunderstand. Cecil's statement has nothing to do with ability. It has everything to do with state of mind. It is a belief, held so strongly that it becomes truth.

Dave

Dave, isn't that similar to an "illusion"?

For Cecil, of course, it "is" the reality.
What comes first, "performance" or "state of mind"?

I grew up with an engineering environment, and we had all these calculations and formulas to predict "truth".
If I go to the range tomorrow, with one of my guns, I have a pretty good idea of how well I will shoot - most likely slightly better than today.
I'm not going to shoot all 10's, if for no other reason than my physical limitations as of today, which continue to improve.

Cecil is amazing not only because of what he can do, but his understanding of so many things.  He also has the "state of mind" you refer to, the belief that is held so strongly that it becomes truth.  That makes me wonder - does/is his excellence due to "state of mind", or all the experience, and training, and learning, and everything that got him to where he is now?

......or to relate that to what I've been posting, no matter what I think, or believe, I will never get "good" at one hand shooting until I develop the strength, and everything else, to make that possible.  One of my best friends was up at the top of bullseye, but he's in his mid 80's, now, and has tremors that limit what he can accomplish.  He knows what to do, and how to do, and so on, but physical limitations can't be "thought away".  Oh well, that's the way I see the world, and my 78 year old body has its own limitations.  


This topic started out as "Irons vs Dot for Accuracy".  My impressions used to be Dot, of course, for the best accuracy, but I was wrong.  The highest scores bullseye shooters ever got were still done with Irons.  That hasn't changed.

Mike,

State of mind comes first, easily. It starts with goal setting, where do I want to be, long term goal. Divide that into intermediate goals, and short term goals. Then planning, how do I get to those short term goals, what will I focus on, what order will I focus on key aspects. Then you just execute the plan. 

There's plenty of room for adaptation as you go. A coach or mentor helps show you the things to focus on to skip things that seem important but either aren't, or aren't important right now.  

Good example of not important right now is the Marine Handbook exercise of 20 10s in a row at 25y SF. Learn what you should see and do, then learn to do it faster. If the goal is 100s at the short line, and you can't shoot 10s with all the time in the world, who cares about first shot drills.

Going back to Cecil's comments when we were calculating there a shot is if you have the post touching the side of a rear sight, I believe I can sum it up again as "WHO CARES!" Line up the sights well and squeeze the trigger. 

You have mentioned a number of times you lack the strength and/or stamina to shoot one handed for a string of 5 shots. If you go to the range tomorrow KNOWING that, nothing will change. If you go to the range tomorrow and focus on changing it, it will change, and for the better. 

Which state of mind would you prefer?

Soupy44 wrote:State of mind comes first, easily. It starts with goal setting, where do I want to be, long term goal. Divide that into intermediate goals, and short term goals. Then planning, how do I get to those short term goals, what will I focus on, what order will I focus on key aspects. Then you just execute the plan. 

You have mentioned a number of times you lack the strength and/or stamina to shoot one handed for a string of 5 shots. If you go to the range tomorrow KNOWING that, nothing will change. If you go to the range tomorrow and focus on changing it, it will change, and for the better. 

Which state of mind would you prefer?

Goal: To be able to shoot any of my guns, at any distance, one-handed or two-handed, either with a dot or with open sights.

Plan to accomplish this:  Daily holding drills, and dry-firing, to build up my strength, stamina, and control, and trips to the range to see the improvements.
I plan to start shooting at the monthly bullseye and silhouette matches at my range.

State of mind: As long as I continue to improve, I am happy.

Hey Mike,

That's a good start. Long term goals, drills to get there. I see it missing a plan, and measurable metrics for your goals. I bet you already can pick up any of your guns and shoot them already.

The Marine Handbook gives a good order of what to practice, and even tells you what you're focusing on in order to achieve certain scoring goals. 

Augment that with dry firing on a blank wall.

Lastly, "As long as I focus on things that will make me improve, I will improve and be happy." Scores come from actions.

...how many years did it take you before you could reliably shoot 10's "every time you follow your shot process".

I think you are really asking is 2 questions in the whole post, that one and "how long before I believed I could shoot 10's if I followed a consistent shot process"? 

The answer to the second one is just a few seconds after I shot my first 10.  But that's mostly I had previously learned how to learn.  The best learning takes place after a correct procedure or action has occurred.  No one learns how to play the piano by trying to figure out how they hit the wrong key, or how to hit a golf ball by studying an incorrect swing.  I have observed that for the most part when shooters complete an acceptable shot, they immediately "try" again rather than taking the time to review, analyze, see in their mind what happened, make notes or anything resembling the study and analysis of what just happened.  

And part of learning how to learn comes from awareness, developing the ability to observe versus just "looking", visualization, thinking (not just having thoughts), belief in our abilities, using all the senses possible to progress from "data" to "information" to "intelligence" to "action" to "analysis and revision".  (That's not all of it of course, but a good beginning.)   

If you want to see what real visualization looks like, try here:  (Its the first video clip and this is just one of many sets in the show.  the most important thing to note about the visualization is that it takes exactly the same amount of time as the real actions.)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41922/watch-the-meditative-like-ritual-the-blue-angels-go-through-before-every-flight-demo

And the occupation or inclination of the individual does not matter, I have been many things in the past, including an engineer, and will be many other things in the future. 

I had the opportunity to learn how to learn from some very good teachers in other things like fencing, self defense, golf, even rhetoric (bless the soul of the man that sought to bring real learning to a backwater North Carolina county), to name a few.  

The answer to the first question was about 6 months or so to gain consistency in the physical and mental aspects to more reliably  shoot a 10 or X.  But the thought that "I can shoot 10's" should start before we ever do, but it will be confirmed the first time we shoot one.  We just have to take the time to learn from that success to do it more consistently.    

CR

To Soupy44:   Thanks, and yes, dry-firing on a blank wall sounded silly to me years ago, but now I know it was anything but.  I do that at least five days a week, for perhaps two hours.  Long ago, the gun moved much of the time when I fired.  Right now, I'm down to where I can detect movement maybe 1/5 of the time, and any movement is obvious.  

I thought of something else last night - I suspect that for most people reading this, Bullseye is a sport, a competition.  I couldn't help but feel that way too, when I signed up for matches.  But that has rarely been the reason for why I shoot - which is that I enjoy it.  For lots of reasons, I "stunk" at sports, and hated doing so, but Bullseye, for me, became personal, and my only real competition is myself, "yesterday".  


By the way, your last sentence, for me, is SO true: 
""As long as I focus on things that will make me improve, I will improve and be happy."

My way of doing that, which I've been told many times is wrong, is to look for what I'm doing wrong, and fix it.

I've been told time and again that this is bad, as I'm focusing on "the bad", rather than appreciating "the good".  To me, once I figure out my mistakes, and eliminate or correct them, what's left becomes better.

To me, once I figure out my mistakes, and eliminate or correct them, what's left becomes better.

Did you ever pause to think that process and mental outlook could be why it takes more time to see any improvement?

Why not "focus" on what to do?  You should not be just "appreciating the good", but LEARNING from the good.

I believe Brian Enos once said that if your head is not in the right place, then the bullet will not be in the right place either.  
(Maybe not exactly the quote, maybe he never did and I'm remembering wrong, but like something he should have said.)

(Oh, and I think I'm done with this topic.  Its way too off the original topic to have any relevance in a future search.)

CR10X wrote:Did you ever pause to think that this could be why it takes more time to see any improvement?

Without having a coach to tell me what (not) to do, of course it will take a long time, and based on past experience, it takes forever to realize what the mistake is.

If I (or anyone) knew what was a mistake ahead of time, we wouldn't be making that mistake again.  

To me, it's mostly "trial and error" - and when I asked people to record a video of me, shooting, I immediately found the "obvious" mistakes.  I never realized why I was blinking years ago because I didn't think I was.  Just one example.  I think you would agree that the first step in correcting a problem, is to identify it......   after which, to correct it.



From the 1970's through 2015 or so, I just shot every week or two, for fun.  People showed me how to handle a gun, the safety procedures and rules, and I just did it as a hobby.  I had two S&W Model 29 revolvers, a Colt Combat Commander, and a S&W Model 41 which I considered a "toy".  The Colt had serious problems - nobody could shoot it well, and eventually it was sent back to Colt to get it fixed.  The large revolvers were great, and during each week I would load enough ammo for my trip to the range.  I think I discovered this forum in 2016, and that changed everything.  Only then did I realize how little I really knew.  That is also when I realized that people here shot with only one hand.


Back to what you wrote, you are SO right.  It took forever to improve, as I was doing so many things incorrectly.  I sort of knew what I was supposed to do, but not any specific details.  THAT is when I should have looked around for a nearby Bullseye Club, of which I'm sure Michigan had plenty, and I would have learned the correct things way back then.

....and again, back to what you just wrote, and I quoted - the only way for that to have happened more quickly, would have been to have found a good coach.  Trial and error also works, but takes a long time.

CR10X wrote:.....part of learning how to learn comes from awareness, developing the ability to observe versus just "looking", visualization, thinking (not just having thoughts), belief in our abilities, using all the senses possible to progress from "data" to "information" to "intelligence" to "action" to "analysis and revision".....  

Looking back on things, and considering what I've slowly learned over 78 years, I completely agree with what you wrote, but I've never thought of it that way until I read your post.  You've combined a life time of "learning" into one short paragraph.

"Learning how to learn".........    having read what you wrote, it sounds "obvious", but I never put it together in my mind so clearly.  And equally clearly, it's never going to stop, for any of us, as however much "we" have already learned, I'm sure there is much more yet to learn.  

It's like you are shining a spotlight on all the things we have learned in the past, and how we may have put them to use.

It could be the basis for a good book you may eventually write.....

Damn, you're still missing the point.  If you have shot a single 10 then you have a coach right there.  He showed you the correct way to do it if you would just see and study it instead of look at all those other shots. 

Ok, now on to another subject.

Troubleshooting is a tried and true method for many things and is sometimes necessary, like for electronics.  It is also possible to use it with shooting and many successful shooters have (and still) use(d) that approach, but it is the long way.  When you drive to the range, do you study all the side streets and decide they won't get you there?

"Right now, I'm down to where I can detect movement maybe 1/5 of the time, and any movement is obvious"

Seek what you wish to find.

To some other things:

I keep getting the impression that many of the posters are behind in starting their trigger operation.  Some of this may be due to the way sentences are structured.  Instead of aligning the sights and becoming steady, and then operating the trigger, try operating the trigger as the sights are becoming aligned and the picture is becoming stable.  The goal is to have the shot happen when the sights align within your area of hold, rather than starting the trigger after you get there.  If all you do is align the sights into the center of the target, how long does that take?  Now, start the trigger as you are approaching that moment such that the shot fires when it is achieved.

As to holding the same grip throughout ten shots:  It might be better to first learn a consistent grip.  Otherwise, you'll still get shifting groups that will tax your mental process.  Whether the shifting groups are five shots or ten shots, they are still shifting.  I've known some pretty good Slow Fire shooters that regripped for every shot and I've known some good ones that held the same grip for all ten.  I've mostly been of the latter, but I've had no uneasiness about resetting my grip, either.  But, you need it to be consistent.*

Remember, too, that a shift in stance will shift your group.  You need consistency throughout.

* One training session, long ago, I picked up my gun and all the shots went straight into the center.  I spent several minutes writing down all the details of my grip, with my left hand, before I let go of the gun with my right.

One last thought for now:

You can't truly duplicate a shot fired by trying to duplicate it.  That wasn't what you were doing when you shot it.  Build your process and perform that.

Soupy44 wrote:Assuming a shooter has good vision to see both well, which has the higher ceiling, irons or dot?

Discuss!

I'm more accurate with a dot, but I'm faster with irons.

To the OP, I think the point ceiling is higher with a red dot when shooting an outdoor 1800 or maybe 2700. 

I find it extremely difficult to shoot irons at my indoor range where we shoot weekly league matches. Poor lighting makes the points ceiling much higher with a red dot in this indoor range environment. 

I also shot back to back 2700s last weekend with red dots on both of my guns and I was noticeably more exhausted physically but less fatigued mentally. I think the point ceiling with irons may be higher for me in a several day tournament plus EICs and team matches due to the reduced physical fatigue. 

-TH