22 Pistol Reliability

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22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/19/2013, 9:08 am

I have some general and some specific questions for the group concerning 22 pistol reliability. I am a beginning Bullseye shooter using a one year old Ruger Mark III stainless steel Target pistol and have had a few problems during competition with my equipment. Twice yesterday I have had round number 4 nose dive into round number 5 on magazines loaded with five rounds. I also had a cartridge (round 2, 3 or 4) fire and not move the slide. The pistol and both magazines were clean at the beginning of the day (no cartridge residue anywhere), chamber brushed out, all parts had been wiped with a Remoil soaked patch for an oil film but not wet, and the ammo was recent manufacture SK Standard Plus. All machined edges on the pistol and magazines have been conservatively dressed to remove burrs but not change shape or dimensions. The magazines are marked but I was unable to connect the feed fault to a particular unit. I plan to check for friction again where the button on the magazine follower travels in the magazine.

At this point I am not very impressed with Ruger's design. It looks like a high school machine shop project built to fingernail tolerances, and I don't like that the first round in each magazine has to be carefully nosed up before loading to avoid nose dive jams on the first round. It is a very easy pistol to disassemble and re-assemble after reading Bullseye's instructions at http://www.guntalk-online.com/detailstrip.htm .

Being a mechanic and desiring reliability in my equipment, which 22 pistols are considered to have good reliability when maintained properly and which tend to have chronic faults? Any suggestions to improve reliability in 22 pistols and in Rugers?


Last edited by Sa-tevp on 2/19/2014, 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by M Zampini on 8/19/2013, 9:18 am

Also being new-  I will piggy-back additional questions to this thread which is  already started.

My BE experience started this summer @ Pistol SAFS (so I am VERY new).

Ammo/Pistol Question-  I have a Buckmark and came across CCI Standard Velocity ammo.   If the firearm is clean and maintained, will the ammo function reliabily?   Realizing that at this stage in my Be career, I am the limiting factor to accuracy-  should this combo of gun/ammo out perform my ability?

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by BE Mike on 8/19/2013, 9:55 am

It's been a long time since I owned a Ruger, but that's the pistol I started with in this game. As I recall, I did have to tweak the magazines a little to get them to feed reliably, but once done, the pistol was extremely reliable. Accuracy was never an issue. I'm sure someone else will chime in.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by DavidR on 8/19/2013, 10:02 am

Rugers are somewhat ammo sensitive, mine will run cci all day long with no issues but wont run a single mag full of aguila sv. Try different brands till you find the best for your gun.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/19/2013, 12:07 pm

DavidR wrote:Rugers are somewhat ammo sensitive, mine will run cci all day long with no issues but wont run a single mag full of aguila sv. Try different brands till you find the best for your gun.
A good idea but a bit challenging at the moment. I had been using CCI Mini Mag when I first bought the pistol due to shop and internets recommendations for a new Ruger, and after I became aware of Bullseye shooting I tried a brick of SK Standard Plus and Wolf Match Target to confirm function, settling on the SK due to availability and less garish packaging. The SK and Wolf has worked well in practice.

Beside looking for sources of friction in the magazines, I will sample the SK for overall length. Are the SAAMI specification of 0.95-1.00" generally followed by manufacturers? (see link, page 19 of pdf, page 12 of manual)

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/208.pdf

Tipping up the first round before loading still strikes me as half-assed engineering.


Last edited by Sa-tevp on 2/19/2014, 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by jakuda on 8/19/2013, 12:16 pm

I've never had an issue with my Ruger mark 3 with SK/Wolf, Eley (all kinds) Federal, or CCI SV ammunition and never any issues with their magazines.

A round not moving the bolt is a big deal and more likely an ammunition issue.

For your latter question. There are many 22LR pistols shooters have upgraded too with many rationalizations. Truthfully, the Ruger will let you shoot to High Master if you let it, but ergonomics, weight/balance, trigger, etc... are all reasons one would upgrade to say a Trailside or a Marvel Conversion.

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/19/2013, 2:16 pm

jakuda wrote: A round not moving the bolt is a big deal and more likely an ammunition issue.
That one made me nervous. I cleared it and ran my Empty Chamber Indicator nylon strand all the way through the barrel to make sure everything was clear before moving on. Squibs or possible squibs are one of my phobias.

Come to think of it, I had one empty case stove-pipe too. Possibly some grit that got moved around caused these faults which I've never experienced before. I've fired around 600 SK rounds before this and cleaned between range trips.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by BE Mike on 8/19/2013, 3:17 pm

I'd really give the chamber a good cleaning and try again. Sometimes lead and carbon can be hard to detect and are pretty tough to get out.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by DavidR on 8/19/2013, 4:18 pm

sk and wolf are the same just different packaging all made in the same factory owned by lapua.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Jack H on 8/19/2013, 7:59 pm

I have lengthy experience with Ruger MkII, High Standards 102-107 (originals), 41, 208s, and 3 brands 22 conversions.  I would put Ruger amongst the most reliable.  They are not hard to set up with a few common adjustments to the mag, and switch to the Volquartsen extractor.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Dave C. on 8/19/2013, 8:19 pm

Have you tried a small drop of oil on the top round in the magazine?

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by WVBE Shooter on 8/19/2013, 9:20 pm

I started with a ruger mkiii comp. model and it would fire everything except Remington ammo.  It was brand new to me and I enjoyed shooting.  However the balance was what troubled me the most.  I now have a SW model 41 and do not regret upgrading.

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/19/2013, 9:35 pm

Dave C. wrote:Have you tried a small drop of oil on the top round in the magazine?

Dave C.
That may be the solution to the failure to cycle, but doesn't seem likely to help the feed or eject faults.

To clarify the problems.

After many practice rounds using SK Standard Plus I experienced four faults during competition:

1. A nose-dive jam on rounds 4 and 5 using a magazine loaded with five rounds (during slowfire)

2. A failure to cycle the slide after firing. Manually moving the slide with normal force ejected the case, no barrel obstruction. Not sure if this resulted in a miss. (during slowfire)

3. A stove pipe jam at the end of a magazine loaded with five rounds. (during slowfire)

4. Another nose-dive jam on rounds 4 and 5 during timed fire.

Solving the problem with a checkbook or credit card is not very feasible due having to balance a new Colt Gold Cup National Match with soon to be purchased furniture, but I am interested in whether all 22's are temperamental. Also, there are Volquartsen internals installed on the Ruger (trigger, sear, machined disconnector, extractor, firing pin).

While cleaning the sow's ear's (Ruger Mark III's) magazines I found that the magazine follower buttons drag a bit sometimes in their slots. Has anyone used the magazines without the follower buttons, loading five rounds like a centerfire magazine? I can see where the buttons would be desirable when loading ten rounds.


Last edited by Sa-tevp on 2/19/2014, 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/19/2013, 10:21 pm

Hi-standards are notorious for needing EXTREMELY PRECISELY tuned magazines or it's misfeed after misfeed.

.22 conversions like Marvels can be useless without the right recoil spring and mainspring combination. (stovepipes, not ejecting brass)

Model 41's are really sensitive to different ammo.

Did the MKIII always have this problem or has it started recently?
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/19/2013, 11:11 pm

Rob Kovach wrote: Did the MKIII always have this problem or has it started recently?
It is a recent development. No prior stove pipes, failure to cycle or nose dive jams in the middle of the magazine. I did experience nose dive jams after inserting a magazine when I started using this pistol until I figured out to tip up the first rounds. (Later found as item 18 of Saint Bullseye's troubleshooting guide: http://www.guntalk-online.com/TroubleshootingPage.htm )

It is possible to have had crud, an oval case, a long cartridge and bound up magazine follower in these four failures.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/19/2013, 11:17 pm

So, let me get this straight, we are trying to troubleshoot a problem that happened 4 times and the problem is now gone?

I've had CCI SV in cardboard that had been dropped deforming all of the cases slightly....all of the deformed cases became practice rounds and had function problems.

So since those 4 rounds, normal operation has resumed?

You don't have a problem then.
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Now to fix the nut behind the rear sight blade

Post by Sa-tevp on 8/20/2013, 6:59 am

Rob Kovach wrote: So since those 4 rounds, normal operation has resumed?

You don't have a problem then.
There was normal operation for the remaining 25 to 30 shots in the 22 event.

While studying the magazines on the workbench I found that the magazine follower buttons had some drag as it moved through its slot in the magazine. Some polishing of the buttons and the friction is gone. If I remove the buttons the bolt hold open after last round function won't work, since the button presses up the bolt stop assembly when the magazine is empty.

I also discovered while inspecting a box of SK used to check the magazines with that one of the cartridges has a shaved bullet. I'll have to start inspecting before packing up for a competition.


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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Yiogo on 8/20/2013, 7:28 pm

My Mark 111 needs to be cleaned before a match. I even remove the firing pin. Since I began doing that I have very few issues.
As was said, some 22 pistols can be sensitive to ammo. Try another brand.
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by pergoman on 8/21/2013, 10:53 pm

Gotta question the lot of CCI SV. I have more bricks of "bad" CCI that is used strictly for practice than I care to think about. I have 3 Hi Standards and a Pardini that will not be fed the "bad" stuff during a match. I burn it up for pistol practice or in the S&W 15-22 rifle. The quality control is non-existent since last fall. Our winter league starts in  3 weeks and I plan to use Wolf MT during matches.

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by DavidR on 8/22/2013, 9:14 am

CCI has in the past been good about replacing bad ammo, give them a call
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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Bullseye10X on 8/25/2013, 3:41 am

I have a Ruger 22/45 Lite.  I shoot CCI Standard Velocity 40 gr. LRN exclusively.  I have put about 700 rounds through the gun since mid-July, and had only ONE (1) fail to extract.  Federal AutoMatch works okay too, but it's not as accurate at the CCI SV through my gun.  I consistently shoot 1-1/2" groups off the bench at 25 yards, and have even shot a 1" group.  This is through a non-modified gun.  Bottom line, CCI SV is the perfect cartridge for the 22/45.

I tear down and clean my gun thoroughly after every time I shoot it.  I lightly oil the bolt, and it runs 100%.  I think that has a lot to do with it. 

Remington Thunderbolt is absolute crap.  Don't bother using it in any gun.  It's inconsistent, lots of under powered loads, loads of variable power, all kids of FTE.  Absolute crapola.

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by ShooterSteve on 8/25/2013, 5:56 am

Many years ago, I purchased a MK-II 5.5" bull barrel Ruger pistol.  It gave me fits with feeding malfunctions with any ammo I tried with it.  I ended up sending it back to Ruger.  It was returned to me with a new barrel and the problem went away.

10-12 years ago when I first started shooting B.E., I purchased a used, S&W 41 that had only been fired about 100 rounds.  I shot the pistol for 3 years without a single malfunction using CCI Std Velocity.  I never put oil on the rounds, however, I kept the slide rails oiled.  I would clean the pistol approximately every 500 rounds.

I quit shooting BE for several years and sold the 41 (my bad).  Having starting up again this past year I purchased another used 41 that has been shot much more than my original one.  I could not get through a match without a malfunction using CCI Std. Velocity.  I found out the few bricks of CCI Std Velocity that I had sitting around for awhile were the non-desirable lots that were made for a short while on Federal production lines.  With the ammo shortage they way it has been, I was willing to shoot anything that would cycle until things improved.  I ended up buying a quantity of cheap Federal 550 round loose packed 36 gr hp ammo from my brother.  This ammo has been very reliable and more accurate than I expected too.

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Sa-tevp on 9/14/2013, 5:40 pm

During recent practice I experienced more jams. Six were what looked like the bolt missing the rim, denting the case and then jamming the bullet into the ramp and shaving some lead. The shaving looked like the bottom of the bolt pushed the lead forward. There were also two stovepipe jams. All occurred at the beginning of a 80 round practice session with three magazines.

The magazines seat with 1/32" clearance to the ejector and the ejector appears to be in the appropriate location of the bolt. The magazines have had the lips deburred since practice and the bolt cycles well (slow and fast) with snap caps, smooth with no hitches. I'm suspecting that smoothing out friction in the magazines will be the cure. Also found that the recoil spring guide rod was tilted down towards the chamber. Inverting it gave more room and maybe removed some friction.

For the previous report of firing with out cycling the action, I think what may have occurred was a weak charge not making the bolt travel back enough to hit the ejector, returning the case to the chamber. Does the recoil spring need to be tuned or replaced to use standard velocity cartridges?

Something surprising while studying the Ruger design was how large the chamber is. A spent SK case seems to rattle with the clearance.


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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by CR10X on 9/15/2013, 2:43 pm

Sa-tevp:

I am having similar problems with a Volquartsen Ruger build up with a Pac-lite top end. The Ruger Mark III magazines appear to sometimes have issues with the 3rd or 4th rounds not feeding, shaved bullets, feed jams, etc.  It appears to me that the new magazine release, magazine size and geometry changes results in the gun not holding the magazines as stable as the Mark II.  When the magazine has more than 4 round, the mag spring pressure and magazine weight tend to overcome the issues.  I've done considerable turning of the magazines, checked follower buttens, smoothed out feed lips, checks butten clearance with grips, even tried some things I'd rather not discuss here.   Anyway, the best solution I have found is to get some more magazines and keep trying.  

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Re: 22 Pistol Reliability

Post by Guest on 9/15/2013, 3:11 pm

I have had a Ruger Mark III Target and I have a round that does not fully extract about one time out of twelve-hundred times.  I haved used CCI SV, Ely Target, Remington Thunderbolt.  All have worked well.  I did pay for a trigger job.  Best $120 I spent.

Chip


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