22 ammo oooomph

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22 ammo oooomph

Post by Jack H on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:31 pm

Can someone explain to me really why wimpy (but very accurate) ammo like SK most often fails to cycle the slide on the first round.  But after clearing, the following rounds usually cycle OK.  I do not mean about the spring being marginal.  I mean why the first ends up back in the chamber then the rest cycle fine.  I find this happening in several guns.

Speaking of that, I was using the SK (Standard) and CCI SV (paper box) in my Custom Pro II.  All at 25yds, the CCI cleaned sustained.  So did the SK, but the groups are tighter.  Then I arm rested both.  At the 25, CCI grouped one inchish.  The SK grouped one-half inchish. 

BTW - The Custom Pro II is 

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:26 pm

What is a custom pro II?

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Brettitt41 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:53 pm

My M&P22 plinker does the same with sv ammo. First round FTE the rest are fine. I think it is a cold metal and lubrication issue. Just enough extra friction when cold to slow the slide. I now rack the slide a few times first before the first shot and no problems since.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by LongSlide on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:14 pm

Stiction is your answer  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction. 

Brettitt41's solution would probably work for you too.

Whenever we had our data center powered off, we always lost a few drives to stiction when power came back up.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by DavidR on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:09 pm

Recoil spring in that gun is for use with high velocity ammo. A lighter spring will fix it so it will run with sv

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Steve B on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:47 pm

Photos please of that new conversion.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by BE Mike on Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:43 am

I've had that problem with my Hammerli 208s. After a thorough cleaning, the first round wouldn't completely eject. After that first round, it functions just fine.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Historian1972 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:34 am

Custom Pro II is Bob Marvel's new .22 conversion.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Art on Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:29 pm

The rounds in the magazine push up against the disconnector rail of the slide - more rounds in the magazine would put more pressure/friction on the slide and as the rounds are fired the pressure/friction decreases - or that's what I thought when I experienced the same problem in a few 22's.

A little hotter ammo (isn't CCI standard velocity the highest velocity standard/target ammo) or a lighter recoil spring or in 1911's sometimes a lighter hammer spring can help with a conversion unit.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Kermit Workman on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:58 pm

I kinda found the same thing with early rounds not functioning the pistol. The solution in my case was to scrub the chamber before firing. It seems the "crude" in the chamber from the previous firing session prevents the pistol from functioning. I use a .243 or .257 brush bent with a 90 degree angle to scrub the chamber. I also scrub the chamber between slow and sustained fire to keep alibis down.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by BE Mike on Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:42 pm

Art wrote:The rounds in the magazine push up against the disconnector rail of the slide - more rounds in the magazine would put more pressure/friction on the slide and as the rounds are fired the pressure/friction decreases - or that's what I thought when I experienced the same problem in a few 22's.

A little hotter ammo (isn't CCI standard velocity the highest velocity standard/target ammo) or a lighter recoil spring or in 1911's sometimes a lighter hammer spring can help with a conversion unit.
I did some chronograph tests a while back. I only tested 3 different .22 ammos. SK Jagd Pistol Match (approximately 980 fps) was the hottest of the 3 with CCI SV and Aguila Target being about the same at around 945 fps. This was out of a Marvel Precision Unit I.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:05 pm

I'm told Federal Automatch is hotter than those.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Jack H on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:56 pm

I did a lot of chronographing 22 some time ago.  I found no ironclad correlation of velocity and cycling ooomph.  SK and Wolf were not the only slow velocity.  NSK says the pressure curve is the thing involved

Here is the report from long ago:


In my Marvel, under the conditions that were.
Chronograph placed about 8' forward. Most of them are
two 5 shot strings each.


711 1022,  1010

900B 958, 961
UM1 1037, 1026
Aguila SV 1013, 1020
PMC SM 943, 938
T22 1060, 1052
RWS SM 927, 903, 921
Rem Tgt* 1033, 999, 1022
Rem Tgt** 1025, 1017
SK Std Plus 930, 934, 922
Wolf MT 972, 980, 972
Wolf again 981
CCI SV^ 927, 929
CCI SV^^ 932, 942
Eley P Std 959, 962 (aqua)
Eley Tgt P 950, 944 (yellow)
Eley P Xtra 929, 931 (lt blue)


*Rem Tgt made in Bridgeport
**rem Tgt made in Arkansaw
^CCI C23F08
^^ CCI J06F15


All ammos cycled fine except SK Std Plus. Some SK
would not even clear the extractor and went right back
into the chamber. Strange the Wolf was not very close
to the SK like I did expect.
One misfire with Rem, but it fired after rotating.
One PMC failed to pick up.


All this was with a brand new Marvel. Its first time
out on the Les Baer lower Roddy made for the older
Marvel.


The biggest surprise and disapointments were PMC
Scoremaster, and the expensive, obsolete, RWS Special
Match. It's extreme spread over 15 test shots was
849-965.



Additional tests in a 41. 5.5" barrel shortened and
crowned from a 7".
Rem* 991, 1003, 1001
SK Std Plus
922, 924, 922, 922, 922, 920, battery went out
then with new battery
902, 909, 928, 933, 917. av 917
I had to hand cycle 50% of the SK






12 shots across the chrono each test with 4" model 18 S&W. 6 tests total at about 7'.


T22
#1 avg of 12...954
#2 avg of 12...966


PMC Scoremaster
#3 896
#4 913


Dynapoints
#5 971
#6 975


Tests were done in 1-3-5-2-4-6 order.




Then in a 5 screw K22 6"
CCI 872
SK 896
RWS SM 896
T22 1011


next day same revolver
Win Xpert 987
Dynapoint 950
CCI SV 845
Fed HV 1018



YFPSMV (Your feet per second May Vary)

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by BE Mike on Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:42 am

Jack H wrote:I did a lot of chronographing 22 some time ago.  I found no ironclad correlation of velocity and cycling ooomph.  SK and Wolf were not the only slow velocity.  NSK says the pressure curve is the thing involved

Here is the report from long ago:


In my Marvel, under the conditions that were.
Chronograph placed about 8' forward. Most of them are
two 5 shot strings each.


711 1022,  1010

900B 958, 961
UM1 1037, 1026
Aguila SV 1013, 1020
PMC SM 943, 938
T22 1060, 1052
RWS SM 927, 903, 921
Rem Tgt* 1033, 999, 1022
Rem Tgt** 1025, 1017
SK Std Plus 930, 934, 922
Wolf MT 972, 980, 972
Wolf again 981
CCI SV^ 927, 929
CCI SV^^ 932, 942
Eley P Std 959, 962 (aqua)
Eley Tgt P 950, 944 (yellow)
Eley P Xtra 929, 931 (lt blue)


*Rem Tgt made in Bridgeport
**rem Tgt made in Arkansaw
^CCI C23F08
^^ CCI J06F15


All ammos cycled fine except SK Std Plus. Some SK
would not even clear the extractor and went right back
into the chamber. Strange the Wolf was not very close
to the SK like I did expect.
One misfire with Rem, but it fired after rotating.
One PMC failed to pick up.


All this was with a brand new Marvel. Its first time
out on the Les Baer lower Roddy made for the older
Marvel.


The biggest surprise and disapointments were PMC
Scoremaster, and the expensive, obsolete, RWS Special
Match. It's extreme spread over 15 test shots was
849-965.



Additional tests in a 41. 5.5" barrel shortened and
crowned from a 7".
Rem* 991, 1003, 1001
SK Std Plus
922, 924, 922, 922, 922, 920, battery went out
then with new battery
902, 909, 928, 933, 917. av 917
I had to hand cycle 50% of the SK






12 shots across the chrono each test with 4" model 18 S&W. 6 tests total at about 7'.


T22
#1 avg of 12...954
#2 avg of 12...966


PMC Scoremaster
#3 896
#4 913


Dynapoints
#5 971
#6 975


Tests were done in 1-3-5-2-4-6 order.




Then in a 5 screw K22 6"
CCI 872
SK 896
RWS SM 896
T22 1011


next day same revolver
Win Xpert 987
Dynapoint 950
CCI SV 845
Fed HV 1018



YFPSMV (Your feet per second May Vary) That was very enlightening. Thanks for sharing your hard work. Did you do any machine rest groups and correlate any relationship between accuracy and velocity?

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Sa-tevp on Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:01 am

Jack H wrote:HI did a lot of chronographing 22 some time ago. I found no ironclad correlation of velocity and cycling ooomph. SK and Wolf were not the only slow velocity. NSK says the pressure curve is the thing involved.
- All ammos cycled fine except SK Std Plus. Some SK would not even clear the extractor and went right back into the chamber. Strange the Wolf was not very close to the SK like I did expect.
Great data. I've also experienced the stuck first round and some fail to fully cycle with SK Standard Plus in a Ruger Mark III Target but so far no problems in a Hammerli X-esse (110 rounds so far). I need to test the Ruger after more aggressive cleaning of the chamber and review of friction in the action. The Ruger has had about 2000 SK Standard Plus rounds through it so far with about 30 to 40 of the two mentioned failure types.

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

Post by Larry Lang on Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:05 pm

This time of year, with ~50F temp, I charge my Marvel (Colt) mags as follows:
1, 2, 3, drop of oil, 4, 5, drop of oil. No cycling problems with Golden Eagle Target.
70F or warmer I need no oil, just brush the chamber and pull a patch once in awhile.
JMHO

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Re: 22 ammo oooomph

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