Air Pistol is SO MUCH FUN!

First topic message reminder :

Just took my first shots on my LP10 with what little air it had in the cylinders it came with (getting a setup to refill here friday) and holy crap this is SO FUN

Just a couple 10 shot strings after getting it zeroed for a center hold. I think the slight cross breeze caused my my shots to string out a lot on the first target, unintuitively in the opposite direction. The wind was blowing left to right and I think I was probably slightly over correcting and pushing the shots left.

Also, I have a question for Mr John Bickar for the benefit of the group: do you shoot center hold on 10m Air Pistol as well as all your other disciplines?

Also, lesson learned already, these targets are not great. after the cardboard got punched out behind, the shot holes started tearing out bigtime. Going to see if i can find a system to make these produce cleaner holes befor buying some Kruger targets

tovaert wrote:

jareds06 wrote:Theoretically, in 1974 when my P210 was made, it shot a 2 7/8" group at 50 meters. I don't know how much of that accuracy potential has degraded over the years, but I don't think much as I received the gun in great shape. I think it's an ammo issue. Chrono'd the ammo and was getting some widely varying results. 

If your P210 has a 1:10 twist barrel, it will likely perform best with the 147 gr JHP subsonic rounds. I hand loaded for my P210A (the newer American made model), the MV sweet spot is about 900 fps +/-. You can buy that ammo from Atlanta Arms. 147 gr Sig Sauer Elite is also very accurate but very expensive. I would try that first. 

IIRC your P210 has upper lugs similar to a 1911, and a curved bottom lug "slot" for the slide stop. Some models also were equipped with a front bushing, which was later discontinued. As is the case with any such design, worn lugs and/or too much clearance between barrel and slide/bushing will degrade group size. I don't think there is anything magic here...just common sense on lockup quality and consistency. 

You can also experiment with different recoil springs, and try to "tune" it somewhat:  

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/442

Thanks for the info, i don't think it's the lockup. I think it's the ammo. I chrono'd it with a fairly wide extreme spread of 90 fps which is pushing the round above and below the transonic barrier. I'm not sure on the twist rate, probably whatever was standard for the Swiss ones in the 1970s as it's the original barrel. I think this new lot of ammo I'm on might just not be as tight as the last group, which sucks since I was so impressed by the last group I bought 3000 more rounds. I'm going to pull bullets, weigh and sort everything and recharge them with a more consistent powder charge, hopefully one that puts them about 1100 fps. Right now it's averaging about 1140, which is an unfortunate velocity to average around considering the speed of sound. After I burn through these, then I'll start reloading as it's nice swiss T marked Thun brass (commercial brand SwissP).

If that doesn't solve the problem the only thing I can think of is I had modified a Beretta 92 wilson combat shok buff to fit the p210 and it slightly contacted the barrel. Maybe this provided pressure on the barrel when fully locked up. I removed it after wearing it out and haven't replaced it.

Also I've thought about getting some Atlanta Arms ammo but if I was going to I'd want to buy a wide spread of their products and test them. If I try and do that online, it gives me a massive shipping charge, Like $15-25 extra per 50 round box, which is not realistic. So if they have a booth on commercial row at Camp Perry I will buy some then. I want to get my P210 shooting X ring sized groups at 50 yards and do something crazy like win the NTI to make a point that this sport does not need a $5000 custom gun you have to wait months on and $1/round ammo, you just have to put in the time and effort. The 2nd part of that equation was "proving" you don't need fancy ammo either, but I guess it's looking like I am going to need fancy ammo on the long line. My best in one go is a 285 with a fairly weak long line. My service pistol bests are 96 at the long line, a 100 in T and 98 in R, so if I were to hit that combination on match day that's a pretty solid chance at winning. I should at least be able to go distinguished with factory gun/factory ammo and I already have 10 leg pts

When Springfield was rewarding guns for those who made the P100 shooting XDs, I know lots of people who made P100 with an XD. The point has been made quite often that you don't need an expensive gun. I know someone who made Distinguished with a 92fs that was accurized with aluminum foil and a shotgun hull that lived under the seat of his jeep. He also made p100 with that gun too if I recall.

Atlanta Arms probably will not have a booth on vender row, honestly they don't need it as they are a reference level ammo. Red Feather Outfitters does sell Atlanta Arms in Ohio. Could probably get some during their 4 Gun match If you can swing it the shooting the Triple crown is a fantastic experience and is a good warm up for the Trophy Matches.

chiz1180 wrote:When Springfield was rewarding guns for those who made the P100 shooting XDs, I know lots of people who made P100 with an XD. The point has been made quite often that you don't need an expensive gun. I know someone who made Distinguished with a 92fs that was accurized with aluminum foil and a shotgun hull that lived under the seat of his jeep. He also made p100 with that gun too if I recall.

Atlanta Arms probably will not have a booth on vender row, honestly they don't need it as they are a reference level ammo. Red Feather Outfitters does sell Atlanta Arms in Ohio. Could probably get some during their 4 Gun match If you can swing it the shooting the Triple crown is a fantastic experience and is a good warm up for the Trophy Matches.

Of course, that's for the P100 though. I think the cutoff last year was like 87%. I'm talking winning the big matches with a factory handgun albeit the Swiss P210 is probably the best handgun to meet that criteria. For me, I look at going distinguished and getting in the P100 for the first time as like the first step into the "big leagues" so to speak. With the way I'm shooting I think I will definitely make the P100 even if I bomb, as my "bonbing" scores are about 263-265. I will definitely be distinguished after Perry and maybe even double or triple by the end of the year with 22 and revolver. So right now I'm focused on hitting 290 consistently with service pistol. Today I just hit 286, breaking my best which I hit last week of 285. I think I'm hitting the upper limit of what my ammo is capable of. Also broke my .22 best of 291 with a 293 today. Tried to get in some air pistol today but it was just too windy and that big long barrel/cylinder just acts like a sail. It ended up just frustrating me so now I'm eating hotdogs.

The P100 last year was shot in the rain and probably a bit of wind. Conditions play a big part.

chiz1180 wrote:The P100 last year was shot in the rain and probably a bit of wind. Conditions play a big part.

I understand that and I don't discount it, but I think we can both agree that there is a big leap from making the P100 to *winning* the P100. When it comes to achieving perfection in anything, it's a game of exponents.

jareds06 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:The P100 last year was shot in the rain and probably a bit of wind. Conditions play a big part.

I understand that and I don't discount it, but I think we can both agree that there is a big leap from making the P100 to *winning* the P100. When it comes to achieving perfection in anything, it's a game of exponents.

You have to make it before you can win it. You are shooting well, however the shooters that I know that have won the P100 shoot to your level of best on a "bad" day. I have seen High Master and Master shooters drop 100-150 points below their average due to conditions. High level goals and optimism are a good thing, but don't loose realistic expectations.

chiz1180 wrote:

jareds06 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:The P100 last year was shot in the rain and probably a bit of wind. Conditions play a big part.

I understand that and I don't discount it, but I think we can both agree that there is a big leap from making the P100 to *winning* the P100. When it comes to achieving perfection in anything, it's a game of exponents.

You have to make it before you can win it. You are shooting well, however the shooters that I know that have won the P100 shoot to your level of best on a "bad" day. I have seen High Master and Master shooters drop 100-150 points below their average due to conditions. High level goals and optimism are a good thing, but don't loose realistic expectations.

Are you trying to suggest that it's not a realistic goal to win the P100/NTI or did misinterpret my post as me saying I could win it right now?

jareds06 wrote:I think it's the ammo. I chrono'd it with a fairly wide extreme spread of 90 fps which is pushing the round above and below the transonic barrier. I'm not sure on the twist rate, probably whatever was standard for the Swiss ones in the 1970s as it's the original barrel. 

The Sig Elite ammo comes in 147 gr. You could buy a box and see if there is a noticeable difference over the 115 gr. stuff you bought. This is (always) subsonic; I see it sold at both of my LGS's, so perhaps no need to buy online. Without a well-executed Ransom Rest for testing, however, it's impossible (at least for me) to use irons off of a bench and determine if the gun/ammo is capable of achieving a goal of an x-ring-size group at 50 yds, with realistic groups of 10 shots. There's a big difference between that and a 10-ring-size group. Also, in my 210A RR testing, MVs with low ES don't guarantee tighter groups, especially at 50 yds. 

IIRC, a '70's Swiss P210 used issue 124 gr ammo, loaded hot. They also accuracy tested on a linear slide device, which eliminated the pivot of the human wrist. Some folks would argue that that type of test was not realistic (eliminating pivot), but I would think that issue is more important for very slow ammo through a long barrel. 

If you are going to pull bullets and reload, maybe try the 147 gr Hornady XTP. This is a BTHP bullet and was the most accurate in my P210A. The 147 JHP loaded subsonic is not snappy, which I liked. Zero and Magnus also sell a 147 gr JHP bullet that is less expensive than the Hornady, but not quite as accurate, though still good. When loading, my last step is a sizing die. Just resize the top 0.1" of the case, since it's tapered, not crimped. Heavier also will use a bit less powder. I never tried the 124 gr Sig Elite. That's also high-velocity.

jareds06 wrote:Of course, that's for the P100 though. I think the cutoff last year was like 87%. I'm talking winning the big matches with a factory handgun albeit the Swiss P210 is probably the best handgun to meet that criteria. For me, I look at going distinguished and getting in the P100 for the first time as like the first step into the "big leagues" so to speak. With the way I'm shooting I think I will definitely make the P100 even if I bomb, as my "bonbing" scores are about 263-265. I will definitely be distinguished after Perry and maybe even double or triple by the end of the year with 22 and revolver. So right now I'm focused on hitting 290 consistently with service pistol. Today I just hit 286, breaking my best which I hit last week of 285. 

Great goals and best of luck to you. I'm not sure if you've read the 2024 CMP Pistol rules, so a couple of notes on your P210-6. 

For Service Pistol, the maximum barrel length (measured from the muzzle to the end of the chamber) is now 5.5". There is no longer a table of approved pistols, where the P210-6 may have been legal in the past. If yours is greater than (but very close to) 5.5", you might get approval but you'll have to contact the CMP pistol rules folks (Jim Henderson) well in advance. 

Also, the trigger must lift a 4# weight. There is no possible waiver on that rule. For the P210, with the curved trigger shoe, the weight will hang at the lowest point. It's a bit subjective how the weight is placed, however, and you don't get to weigh it. IIRC the factory trigger pull setting is closer to 3#, so you should check that out with a weight (as opposed to a pull gage). Increasing the pull weight can be done, however, it changes the sear engagement and feel of the trigger. I changed the trigger return spring and the sear spring in my P210A in order to maintain a nice crisp two-stage 4# trigger pull, essentially re-designing the hammer bloc assembly. 

Finally, with an empty magazine inserted, the maximum weight of the pistol is 45 oz.

If it does not meet the rules, you'll be ineligible for awards (though you can likely still compete out-of-competion). However, it would be fine shooting as a CMP Centerfire Match pistol, as long as it can lift a 2.5# weight (very likely it can).

tovaert wrote:

jareds06 wrote:Of course, that's for the P100 though. I think the cutoff last year was like 87%. I'm talking winning the big matches with a factory handgun albeit the Swiss P210 is probably the best handgun to meet that criteria. For me, I look at going distinguished and getting in the P100 for the first time as like the first step into the "big leagues" so to speak. With the way I'm shooting I think I will definitely make the P100 even if I bomb, as my "bonbing" scores are about 263-265. I will definitely be distinguished after Perry and maybe even double or triple by the end of the year with 22 and revolver. So right now I'm focused on hitting 290 consistently with service pistol. Today I just hit 286, breaking my best which I hit last week of 285. 

Great goals and best of luck to you. I'm not sure if you've read the 2024 CMP Pistol rules, so a couple of notes on your P210-6. 

For Service Pistol, the maximum barrel length (measured from the muzzle to the end of the chamber) is now 5.5". There is no longer a table of approved pistols, where the P210-6 may have been legal in the past. If yours is greater than (but very close to) 5.5", you might get approval but you'll have to contact the CMP pistol rules folks (Jim Henderson) well in advance. 

Also, the trigger must lift a 4# weight. There is no possible waiver on that rule. For the P210, with the curved trigger shoe, the weight will hang at the lowest point. It's a bit subjective how the weight is placed, however, and you don't get to weigh it. IIRC the factory trigger pull setting is closer to 3#, so you should check that out with a weight (as opposed to a pull gage). Increasing the pull weight can be done, however, it changes the sear engagement and feel of the trigger. I changed the trigger return spring and the sear spring in my P210A in order to maintain a nice crisp two-stage 4# trigger pull, essentially re-designing the hammer bloc assembly. 

Finally, with an empty magazine inserted, the maximum weight of the pistol is 45 oz.

If it does not meet the rules, you'll be ineligible for awards (though you can likely still compete out-of-competion). However, it would be fine shooting as a CMP Centerfire Match pistol, as long as it can lift a 2.5# weight (very likely it can).

I've upped the weight to 4.2 lbs to make it legal and it has the standard 120mm barrel. I've already legged with it at a regional match and it passed the CMP equipment control. no worries there

jareds06 wrote:

tovaert wrote:

jareds06 wrote:Theoretically, in 1974 when my P210 was made, it shot a 2 7/8" group at 50 meters. I don't know how much of that accuracy potential has degraded over the years, but I don't think much as I received the gun in great shape. I think it's an ammo issue. Chrono'd the ammo and was getting some widely varying results. 

If your P210 has a 1:10 twist barrel, it will likely perform best with the 147 gr JHP subsonic rounds. I hand loaded for my P210A (the newer American made model), the MV sweet spot is about 900 fps +/-. You can buy that ammo from Atlanta Arms. 147 gr Sig Sauer Elite is also very accurate but very expensive. I would try that first. 

IIRC your P210 has upper lugs similar to a 1911, and a curved bottom lug "slot" for the slide stop. Some models also were equipped with a front bushing, which was later discontinued. As is the case with any such design, worn lugs and/or too much clearance between barrel and slide/bushing will degrade group size. I don't think there is anything magic here...just common sense on lockup quality and consistency. 

You can also experiment with different recoil springs, and try to "tune" it somewhat:  

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/442

Thanks for the info, i don't think it's the lockup. I think it's the ammo. I chrono'd it with a fairly wide extreme spread of 90 fps which is pushing the round above and below the transonic barrier. I'm not sure on the twist rate, probably whatever was standard for the Swiss ones in the 1970s as it's the original barrel. I think this new lot of ammo I'm on might just not be as tight as the last group, which sucks since I was so impressed by the last group I bought 3000 more rounds. I'm going to pull bullets, weigh and sort everything and recharge them with a more consistent powder charge, hopefully one that puts them about 1100 fps. Right now it's averaging about 1140, which is an unfortunate velocity to average around considering the speed of sound. After I burn through these, then I'll start reloading as it's nice swiss T marked Thun brass (commercial brand SwissP).

If that doesn't solve the problem the only thing I can think of is I had modified a Beretta 92 wilson combat shok buff to fit the p210 and it slightly contacted the barrel. Maybe this provided pressure on the barrel when fully locked up. I removed it after wearing it out and haven't replaced it.

Also I've thought about getting some Atlanta Arms ammo but if I was going to I'd want to buy a wide spread of their products and test them. If I try and do that online, it gives me a massive shipping charge, Like $15-25 extra per 50 round box, which is not realistic. So if they have a booth on commercial row at Camp Perry I will buy some then. I want to get my P210 shooting X ring sized groups at 50 yards and do something crazy like win the NTI to make a point that this sport does not need a $5000 custom gun you have to wait months on and $1/round ammo, you just have to put in the time and effort. The 2nd part of that equation was "proving" you don't need fancy ammo either, but I guess it's looking like I am going to need fancy ammo on the long line. My best in one go is a 285 with a fairly weak long line. My service pistol bests are 96 at the long line, a 100 in T and 98 in R, so if I were to hit that combination on match day that's a pretty solid chance at winning. I should at least be able to go distinguished with factory gun/factory ammo and I already have 10 leg pts

John bickar already proved you don’t need a 5k custom gun to win p100. He shot his mom’s ww2 frame built 30 year old built hardball gun and it was free.
#weirdjohnbickarrecords

1911a145 wrote:

jareds06 wrote:

tovaert wrote:

jareds06 wrote:Theoretically, in 1974 when my P210 was made, it shot a 2 7/8" group at 50 meters. I don't know how much of that accuracy potential has degraded over the years, but I don't think much as I received the gun in great shape. I think it's an ammo issue. Chrono'd the ammo and was getting some widely varying results. 

If your P210 has a 1:10 twist barrel, it will likely perform best with the 147 gr JHP subsonic rounds. I hand loaded for my P210A (the newer American made model), the MV sweet spot is about 900 fps +/-. You can buy that ammo from Atlanta Arms. 147 gr Sig Sauer Elite is also very accurate but very expensive. I would try that first. 

IIRC your P210 has upper lugs similar to a 1911, and a curved bottom lug "slot" for the slide stop. Some models also were equipped with a front bushing, which was later discontinued. As is the case with any such design, worn lugs and/or too much clearance between barrel and slide/bushing will degrade group size. I don't think there is anything magic here...just common sense on lockup quality and consistency. 

You can also experiment with different recoil springs, and try to "tune" it somewhat:  

http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/442

Thanks for the info, i don't think it's the lockup. I think it's the ammo. I chrono'd it with a fairly wide extreme spread of 90 fps which is pushing the round above and below the transonic barrier. I'm not sure on the twist rate, probably whatever was standard for the Swiss ones in the 1970s as it's the original barrel. I think this new lot of ammo I'm on might just not be as tight as the last group, which sucks since I was so impressed by the last group I bought 3000 more rounds. I'm going to pull bullets, weigh and sort everything and recharge them with a more consistent powder charge, hopefully one that puts them about 1100 fps. Right now it's averaging about 1140, which is an unfortunate velocity to average around considering the speed of sound. After I burn through these, then I'll start reloading as it's nice swiss T marked Thun brass (commercial brand SwissP).

If that doesn't solve the problem the only thing I can think of is I had modified a Beretta 92 wilson combat shok buff to fit the p210 and it slightly contacted the barrel. Maybe this provided pressure on the barrel when fully locked up. I removed it after wearing it out and haven't replaced it.

Also I've thought about getting some Atlanta Arms ammo but if I was going to I'd want to buy a wide spread of their products and test them. If I try and do that online, it gives me a massive shipping charge, Like $15-25 extra per 50 round box, which is not realistic. So if they have a booth on commercial row at Camp Perry I will buy some then. I want to get my P210 shooting X ring sized groups at 50 yards and do something crazy like win the NTI to make a point that this sport does not need a $5000 custom gun you have to wait months on and $1/round ammo, you just have to put in the time and effort. The 2nd part of that equation was "proving" you don't need fancy ammo either, but I guess it's looking like I am going to need fancy ammo on the long line. My best in one go is a 285 with a fairly weak long line. My service pistol bests are 96 at the long line, a 100 in T and 98 in R, so if I were to hit that combination on match day that's a pretty solid chance at winning. I should at least be able to go distinguished with factory gun/factory ammo and I already have 10 leg pts

John bickar already proved you don’t need a 5k custom gun to win p100. He shot his mom’s ww2 frame built 30 year old built hardball gun and it was free.
#weirdjohnbickarrecords

That “Mom gun” story is almost certainly apocryphal, Matt. If “John Bickar” is a real shooter in California then why haven’t we ever met him? 

The dude posting here under that name is clearly at least two people. And no, I don’t buy the explanation that his personality changes because he’s simply drunk after 6pm. Every night? Come on, man…

Brian Mason wrote:

1911a145 wrote:John bickar already proved you don’t need a 5k custom gun to win p100. He shot his mom’s ww2 frame built 30 year old built hardball gun and it was free.
#weirdjohnbickarrecords

That “Mom gun” story is almost certainly apocryphal, Matt. If “John Bickar” is a real shooter in California then why haven’t we ever met him? 

The dude posting here under that name is clearly at least two people. And no, I don’t buy the explanation that his personality changes because he’s simply drunk after 6pm. Every night? Come on, man…

John Bickar doesn't really exist. He's just a myth that Bullseye shooters tell each other about at night in the huts at Camp Perry.

"In 2045 he may reappear. It's been 22 years since the last sighting. Ooga booga!"

jareds06 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:

jareds06 wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:The P100 last year was shot in the rain and probably a bit of wind. Conditions play a big part.

I understand that and I don't discount it, but I think we can both agree that there is a big leap from making the P100 to *winning* the P100. When it comes to achieving perfection in anything, it's a game of exponents.

You have to make it before you can win it. You are shooting well, however the shooters that I know that have won the P100 shoot to your level of best on a "bad" day. I have seen High Master and Master shooters drop 100-150 points below their average due to conditions. High level goals and optimism are a good thing, but don't loose realistic expectations.

Are you trying to suggest that it's not a realistic goal to win the P100/NTI or did misinterpret my post as me saying I could win it right now?

I am suggesting that it would be an incredibly difficult goal. Competitors both new and old are often surprised/unprepared for conditions at Perry and the P100 brings out serious competition, some shooters shoot the 2700 just as the warm up for the P100 and NTI. Just looking at the top 10 shooters last year, all are seriously heavy hitters in the game, who don't make any excuses, and have significant experience. 

My advice for goal setting is to set goals that do not relate to equipment or others performance. A good goal is something that is difficult but achievable and leaves no room for excuses.

jareds06 wrote:
Also, I have a question for Mr John Bickar for the benefit of the group: do you shoot center hold on 10m Air Pistol as well as all your other disciplines?

Not sure why I got called out here in particular, nor why I got called "Mister," but I'll try to apologize for derailing your thread by actually answering your initial question:

I shoot center hold on every one of the disciplines that I shoot. And I shoot a lot of them, to Jordan's dismay.

john bickar wrote:

jareds06 wrote:
Also, I have a question for Mr John Bickar for the benefit of the group: do you shoot center hold on 10m Air Pistol as well as all your other disciplines?

Not sure why I got called out here in particular, nor why I got called "Mister," but I'll try to apologize for derailing your thread by actually answering your initial question:

I shoot center hold on every one of the disciplines that I shoot. And I shoot a lot of them, to Jordan's dismay.

Just thought I'd ask since you're a known center-hold-er on this forum and have had great success with it.