Disappointed with Zero 185gr SWCHP

Load:

Zero 185gr SWCHP
Starline brass
4.0gr BE
0.920" Shoulder to base
0.6975" Taper crimp


Results: Same recoil or more than 185gr Atlanta Arms!

SA 1911 Target Loaded
Kart XACT Fit
14lb Wolff Recoil Spring
18lb Cylinder-Slide Mainspring


I shot two timed and a rapid fire sessions with Atlanta Arms.  Come around to SWCHP and that recoil was a surprise!!  I've read that it's softer but not at this load and specs! What's even more surprising is that the Garmin Xero C1 says SWCHP was 50fps lower than Atlanta Arms

Is it because of the 0.005 tighter crimp? I" went a little tighter based off recommendations to try a tighter crimp and this is no where close to 0.694

What do you guys think?

Even my 185gr JHP 4.3gr BE shoots softer than 185gr SWCHP 4.0gr BE 

MkFiji wrote:0.6975" Taper crimp

Where/how are you measuring crimp? For 45 auto were expecting 0.463-0.471", upper end for jacketed and lower range recommended by many on this forum for soft lead like your Zeros

Are all the other components brass, primer, lot of powder) the same? How do typu determine your powder charge?

Try 3.6-3.8 BE. 4.0 seems excessive.

Those SWCHP use up the same case volume as a 200 LSWC.

Not a huge difference, but every little bit helps!

Forget the chrono and use what feels and shoots good at the distance you are shooting at.

DA/SA wrote:Try 3.6-3.8 BE. 4.0 seems excessive.

Those SWCHP use up the same case volume as a 200 LSWC.

Not a huge difference, but every little bit helps!

Forget the chrono and use what feels and shoots good at the distance you are shooting at.

This. I use 3.6.

Mark,
If your gun is iron sight only and no dot on the slide, you can try going with even lower charge.  I use 3.3gr of BE for short line and 3.5 for long line.  However crimp is 0.464-0.465". 

AP

SingleActionAndrew wrote:

MkFiji wrote:0.6975" Taper crimp

Where/how are you measuring crimp? For 45 auto were expecting 0.463-0.471", upper end for jacketed and lower range recommended by many on this forum for soft lead like your Zeros

I measure right underneath the edge of the case with the thin blade.  The blade is basically flush with the edge face

Some people said they do a light crimp with LSWCHP and I thought I’d be fine with it

chiz1180 wrote:Are all the other components brass, primer, lot of powder) the same? How do typu determine your powder charge?

In regards to components, are you talking about this LSWCHP load? My first time shooting it. Load is all the same parts, I choose 4.0 because people have said they had great luck with 3.8-4.2gr BE.

Compared to my 4.3gr BE load which felt softer, the BE powder comes from the same 8ish year old jug.  I do have a 4.3gr BE load from a new 1lb bottle that I loaded from, I never shot them side by side with the older powder—I’ll check that next

DA/SA wrote:Try 3.6-3.8 BE. 4.0 seems excessive.

Those SWCHP use up the same case volume as a 200 LSWC.

Not a huge difference, but every little bit helps!

Forget the chrono and use what feels and shoots good at the distance you are shooting at.

I’ll try less powder!

PhotoEscape wrote:Mark,
If your gun is iron sight only and no dot on the slide, you can try going with even lower charge.  I use 3.3gr of BE for short line and 3.5 for long line.  However crimp is 0.464-0.465". 

AP

Yup, iron sights only

Do you crimp 0.464” for the short line as well or just the long line?

I’ll try that charge load

Yes.  One more detail, - most likely you will need to play with recoil springs.  Make sure you have 11 & 12 ##.  Ejection will tell you if your current 14# needs to be changed.  

AP

mkfji,
Yes I was referring to the components in both loads being the same other than your projectile and powder amount. Different primers and brass combinations can sometimes change things, though powder lot variation can be a bigger change.
4.0 with that bullet has been a good performer for me in the past, though a “lower” recoiling round has not been a particularly important goal of mine.

In my testing, I loaded 4.4 Bullseye with 185 JHP and got the same results as the Atlanta Arms results you showed, 790 fps. Which I found to be ,OK for recoil. My load for 185 cast SWC is 4.3 which gives the same velocity. So the recoil is very similar. My load for 200 is 4.0 but I’ve loaded 3.8 and they shoot so close in recoil not enough to notice. Those velocities is 700. I’m at a loss for your crimp dimension. For my lead loads in hard cast .466 and ,464 for soft swaged.

Greetings,

I found Zero 185 SWCHP Lead bullets the best performer of all the store bought bullets I tested...

Gold Cup barrel in a fixture 20 shots fired at 50 yards...



Cheers,

Dave

Edit to clarify a few notes....

Greetings,

Admittedly, the notes are for my use and rather unintelligible to others.

BT-GC = Colt Gold Cup Barrel mounted in the Barrel Tester.

WCC53.468 = Western Cartridge Company dated 1953. (WCC53 Hard Ball) The 0.468 is the diameter I sized the brass cases (I do not use an expander plug). Yes, the brass I used is 71 years old...

LR007 = LabRadar file #0007.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

I found Zero 185 SWCHP Lead bullets the best performer of all the store bought bullets I tested...

Gold Cup barrel in a fixture 20 shots fired at 50 yards...



Cheers,

Dave

That’s quite the tight group! Thanks for sharing!

Few questions:
1) What does BT-GC stand for? 
2) WCC 53.468?
3) R 007?

MkFiji wrote:
Few questions:
1) What does BT-GC stand for? 
2) WCC 53.468?
3) R 007?

1) Barrel Tester-Gold Cup barrel
2) WCC brass dated 1953 crimped .468"
3) LR.007   No idea there!

DA/SA wrote:2) WCC brass dated 1953 crimped .468"

It is rather Taper Crimp at 0.465" as I read it.

I believe .468" represents case sizing.  WCC brass has relatively thick walls.  I'd say in 0.012" - 0.013" range.  With 0.452" OD of the bullet, 0.468" sizing makes perfect sense.

It is IMO.  only fc60 can say for sure.

AP

That makes sense!

Thanks!

Just a side note on trying to replicate ammo from someone else’s notes,  you may or may not be measuring things the same way. For example crimp is not easy to measure and people have different methods to get that number.

As an example, I tried replicating a friend’s load for myself from their notes. I was gifted some of their ammo to test and though I did everything I could to duplicate via the notes I was given, my friends ammo had different performance than what I loaded.

Load development is something that should be done when changing a variable such as powder or projectiles. Just cause something works for one persons specification and use case doesn’t mean it is a one size fits all.

JHP bullets are expensive and there seems to be a bit more felt recoil to me. I used 185 gr. JHP bullets in .45 ACP on the long line in matches with 4.5 gr. of Alliant Bullseye. That load was very accurate at the long line with a good accurized 1911. I used a 185 gr. lead bullet reload at the short line with around 4.0 gr. of Alliant Bullseye. I didn't bother to clean the barrel between the CF match and .45 match. My long line scores in the .45 match didn't suffer, from not cleaning.

Another thought is the gun itself. Target Loaded…didn’t that come with a good fitted barrel already? This xact fit may not engage the locking lugs fully giving more felt recoil. I had a gun that was superb at 50 yards from RR with a range of loads yet, light to heavy yet from hand, l could only do well with light loads. The gun unlocked too fast with heavy loads and had higher felt recoil. Try lighter loads or max out the recoil spring and grip tight to avoid malfunctions. Good luck

bruce martindale wrote:Another thought is the gun itself. Target Loaded…didn’t that come with a good fitted barrel already? This xact fit may not engage the locking lugs fully giving more felt recoil. I had a gun that was superb at 50 yards from RR with a range of loads yet, light to heavy yet from hand, l could only do well with light loads. The gun unlocked too fast with heavy loads and had higher felt recoil. Try lighter loads or max out the recoil spring and grip tight to avoid malfunctions. Good luck

Springfield told me that the Target Loaded should shoot 3” at 25 yards

I’ve never shot very well with the stock barrel, had tighter groups once I fit a Kart XACT Fit.  I’ll try shooting both barrels and bushings next time

Today I went and shot the charges Alex recommended

3.65gr Old BE
0.464
0.92 Base to Shoulder

It’s still surprisingly snappy! Much more recoil than my 4.3gr load still. Was able to get a nice group in Rapid with it a few times, I like how I shoot with it on the short line and long line




The 3.3gr BE didn’t function very well even with a 13lb Wolff spring. It would fail to eject or fail to load

I loaded some 185 SWC at the same specs as SWCHP and it had a lot less recoil. Didn’t like how it shot at the long line though at 3.65gr Old BE


Chronograph shows FPS difference it makes when you take up more or less space in the case