Problem with reloaded ammo.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:00 pm

I loaded up 25 rounds of ammo to check if I'm doing things properly. As per an earlier thread, the info is:

Magnus #801 bullets, 45-185 grain, BNWC .452 did.
4 grains Bullseye
OAL 1.130"
Crimp: 0.469

The good news is that when the ammo shoots, it's better than anything I can remember testing from the past. Here's a photo - shot with the heel of the gun on a sandbag, and for one shot I could feel something move slightly, which explains the bad shot - very happy so far:

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_0610

So far so good, but here's the problem. While the gun shoots fine when I put one cartridge in the magazine, when I put more than one in, the second round will not fire. The trigger behaves as if the grip safety is on - the trigger moves so far, and then won't go any further. I did this several times, and it's very repeatable. Here are two rounds after ejecting them from the gun:

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_2310

by james r chapman Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:07 pm

Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...

by Aprilian Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:10 pm

Definitely shaving the bullet - need to open up the case more or find out why your seating die is partially crimping before the bullet is fully seated. Look at your first picture - I can see the lead ring pushed up by the case and then crimped back down to the bullet. I've loaded a lot of 801's and seen that when setting up my Redding dies with mixed brass. I have had to clean a lot by hand to get that ring off before figuring out the right die settings.

Did you measure the actual OD of the bullets? As I mentioned in the previous thread, I have three boxes that measure .453 and they need a totally different die set up in order to not shave the upper driving band.

How does your barrel look? That much loose lead may have consequences.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:29 pm

james r chapman wrote:Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...

I just checked one now; yes, a bit long - 0.1420 - I thought I set it properly. Will fix.

Here's a test bullet from when I was starting to set the crimp. No primer or powder - it didn't go through the gun:

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_1812

by dronning Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:43 pm

I agree the ring of lead means something isn't set right. Are you belling the case enough? Also are you seating and crimping with the same die? If possible seat and crimp separately.

Those do look like rifling marks. Did you do a drop test with your barrel removed from the gun to see if they seat properly? That lead ring will also keep the round from going into battery. Chances are you have a buildup of lead in the chamber up against the lands.
- Dave

Problem with reloaded ammo. Attachment

by Chris Miceli Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:07 pm

mikemyers wrote:
james r chapman wrote:Looks like rifling! are you sure of the oal?
Im guessing that the bullet sticks out too far, isn't chambering all the way, preventing the slide from coming all the way forward, not allowing the disconnect to work properly.
Just my guess...
or, it's short chambered...
I just checked one now; yes, a bit long - 0.1420 - I thought I set it properly. Will fix.

Here's a test bullet from when I was starting to set the crimp. No primer or powder - it didn't go through the gun:

looks like too much shoulder sticking out and under expanded case, measure your casemouth to the start of the shoulder of the bullet(doesn't have to be the .001) also measure your brass inside diameter after expanding and belling before a bullet goes in.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:08 pm

dronning wrote:I agree the ring of lead means something isn't set right. Are you belling the case enough? Also are you seating and crimping with the same die? If possible seat and crimp separately.

Those do look like rifling marks. Did you do a drop test with your barrel removed from the gun to see if they seat properly? That lead ring will also keep the round from going into battery. Chances are you have a buildup of lead in the chamber up against the lands.
- Dave

Belling the case - maybe not. The advice was to do no more than enough to drop the case "into" she shell. I will correct that tonight.

Seating and crimping with same die - yes. I will change that tonight, seat in the press, and crimp on my RCBS Big Max press. Will try that.

I didn't do a drop test as you describe - I only tested this in the Lyman case gage.

Will do those first, then check the barrel. The previous rounds I got from the reloader at the club did not have this problem, so it's likely something I'm doing wrong now, but I can check everything else too.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:10 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:looks like too much shoulder sticking out and under expanded case, measure your casemouth to the start of the shoulder of the bullet(doesn't have to be the .001) also measure your brass inside diameter after expanding and belling before a bullet goes in.

Chris, will do that also.

by james r chapman Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:14 pm

Mike, with lead bullets the case needs to have a slight, but distinctive belling at the mouth.
Ideally the bullet would hand seat part way down into the case.
You would seat your bullet to the 1.130 using the seating die, and crimp using a separate die to at minimum remove the belling. If your using a taper die, (which you should), you can see a distinctive taper at the mouth of the case after crimping.
Somewhere Len had a good example of this.

by james r chapman Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:19 pm

borrowed this from Len...

Problem with reloaded ammo. Dscf0513

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:27 pm

Lots of measurements, all done with my digital calipers.

Diameter of bottom of #801 bullet: 0.4515
Case ID after re-sizing, as measured with my calipers: 0.4380 min, 0.4415 max
Calse length: 0.8945
Maximum diameter of case after expanding: 0.4485
Distance from case mouth to start of belled area: 0.0700

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:31 pm

Jim, I am ready to change the dies so the seater/crimper die only seats.

Before I do that, do I need more "bell". I set it for the least amount to let the bullet drop a tiny bit "into" the case. Should I open up my "bell" some more?

I'd suggest belling the mouth of your case to .475 O.D, just enough to let the base of the bullet start into the case.

I'd recheck your O.D of the case dimension. should be in the .470'ish range.

by Chris Miceli Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:40 pm

mikemyers wrote:Lots of measurements, all done with my digital calipers.

Diameter of bottom of #801 bullet: 0.4515
Case ID after re-sizing, as measured with my calipers: 0.4380 min, 0.4415 max
Calse length: 0.8945
Maximum diameter of case after expanding: 0.4485
Distance from case mouth to start of belled area: 0.0700

My recommendations is a expander that expanders more a final ID of case to .451 .You cramming a .4515 bullet into a case that .4485 right now. I also recommend setting your bullets farther into the case. You should take your finger nail to the case mouth and it should be close to the edge where it goes from straight to contour on the bullet. Seat and crimp to different dies always. Throw away your dies that seat and crimp at the same time or give them to your worst enemy

by james r chapman Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:42 pm

Chris is over zealous, lol.
Use your seat/crimp die to do one or the other.
but not both!

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:53 pm

Am doing it your way. Nice to have lots of old dies. I removed the lock-out die, and am now installing a LYMAN 45 ACP SEAT DIE, which will be set for 1.130" cartridge length. Back soon.

by james r chapman Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:51 pm

found a pic for you mike!
Federal GM45B on left, Magnus on right.

Problem with reloaded ammo. Factor10

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:06 pm

Thanks, Jim. I am closer.

Removed the lockout die, and started to lower the seater die into station #4.

As per the RCBS manual, raised the shell plate all the way with a case in station #4.

Screwed down the die, as far as it would go, until the inside of the die contacted the top of the case.

I then turned the die one full turn out, raising the die that much, and locked everything in place.

I have two of the part that goes into the die, to push down the bullet. Both have a "curved" inner face to rest against the bullet. Apparently they are identical. Tried one, then the other. I'm looking to see if I have a "flat" one.... Which is appropriate for this bullet?

I screwed the adjuster down until it touched the bullet, then gradually screwed it further in.
When it was in as much as possible, the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long. Is this OK?

Here is what the bullet looks like - very much like the photo you posted, but it's not going to look the same unless I seat it deeper??

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_3410

by Chris Miceli Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:31 pm

Doesn’t look like a fingernails worth

by dronning Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:35 pm

mikemyers wrote:I screwed the adjuster down until it touched the bullet, then gradually screwed it further in.
When it was in as much as possible, the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long. Is this OK?

Here is what the bullet looks like - very much like the photo you posted, but it's not going to look the same unless I seat it deeper??

the cartridge length was down to 1.1360" long. Is this OK? No one could answer that for you, you have to test it in your barrel, it is very possible you have a short chamber. The amount of bullet exposed is what is important. Also make sure you have cleaned your barrel, you may have a build up of lead rings left from your earlier loads.

Make this distance look more like the bullets pictured above.
- Dave
Problem with reloaded ammo. Gap10

by LenV Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:38 pm

And case still looks flared. I don't see any crimp at all.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:00 pm

LenV, one thing at a time. I did get it to look like what you guys suggest, using the RCBS seater/crimper die. I raised the die one turn up so the crimper doesn't touch the case. I'll install a different crimper die in station #5 once the seating seems reasonable. I'll also test in my barrel.

Cartridge length is now 1.1230", allowing it to pass the "fingernail test". :-)

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_4910

by Chris Miceli Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:04 pm

mikemyers wrote:LenV, one thing at a time. I did get it to look like what you guys suggest, using the RCBS seater/crimper die. I raised the die one turn up so the crimper doesn't touch the case. I'll install a different crimper die in station #5 once the seating seems reasonable. I'll also test in my barrel.

Cartridge length is now 1.1230", allowing it to pass the "fingernail test". :-)

Looks more better. Now just add a taper crimp
Crimp

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:36 pm

Coming up next. I'm very slow. Trying to remember, to understand, and to get it to all make sense to me, and the scary thing is that it mostly is. I'll add crimp until it reaches the diameter that was originally suggested, 0.469" die.

by mikemyers Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Found my taper crimp, adjusted it until it started touching the shell, and in 1/8 turn increments kept lowering the die until the crimp size was down to 0.469" dia. I need to buy more of the S&W hex nuts and wrench, so I can properly tighten the dies on the die plate. Not much space.

I will run off 20 rounds, checking writing down OAL and crimp for each.

Problem with reloaded ammo. Img_0813

by dronning Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:54 pm

Looks like you are headed in the right direction. Even though you are using a case gauge do the barrel drop test or "plunk" test (the noise the round should make as it falls into the chamber).

Crimp, if you read through the threads you will find different crimp #'s for different bullet gun combo's, .463-.471 are common and if you are not getting good results at 50yd adjusting the crimp may tighten the group up.

FYI - a 15yd group isn't a good indication of what will happen at the 50yd line.
- Dave

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