Hoarders!!

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Hoarders!!

Post by nmbuzz on 11/28/2014, 6:16 pm

This will probably be posted in the wrong place but there has been a GENERAL discussion as to availability of ammunition for a LONG time now!
  I would like to put that the "reason" there is little or no 22 or rimfire ammunition is due to HOARDERS is BUNK!  The argument makes NO sense!  The wholesalers are NOT getting
22 ammo---  If they had pallets of ammo they would ship it to Walmart---Sportsmans Wharehouse--- Cabellas--  Sportsmans Guide--- it would be available online  etc etc... be cause then they would get paid by these vendors!  LGS have had orders standing for months and years!!    Can't get ANY!  These retailers are NOT putting ammo out in the morning for HOARDERS to grab and take home!  90 customers cannot hoard 2 bricks of ammo!   YOU cannot hoard what is not there!!
  I get ads on line for 9mm ammo daily!!  CHEAP! relatively AND ALL YOU WANT!!!    Militaries all over the world use 9mm ammo!   The USA uses 9mm ammo in LARGE amounts!!
There is obviously a surplus of 9mm!
   Govt agencies...... the world over do NOT use 22 rimfire ammo in any significant amount!  They use 223---9mm etc...  ALL that ammo that is readily available to us all!!  They use it in amounts and volumes that cannot even be compared to 22 rimfire!
  I hear stories of manufacturers working 2-3 shifts and building new manufacturing facilities to keep up with demand!!!!    If this is true ...   where did the ammo go between the end of the production line and the ...."HOARDERS" ?      IT DOES NOT REACH THE HOARDERS---  whoever the hell they are.   It is NOT available to the "HOARDERS".. it is NoT available
to me... it is not available to you!!!  IF it is being manufactured...   WHERE is it going????       Really  wondering...!  NMBUZZ
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Re: Hoarders!!

Post by nmbuzz on 11/28/2014, 6:59 pm

Really.. No outrage.. no comments..   Nothing?
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Re: Hoarders!!

Post by Jon Eulette on 11/28/2014, 7:23 pm

I just bought .22 ammunition for 1st time in 2 years. Damn right I'm pissed. I don't understand why either?
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Post by Guest on 11/28/2014, 7:47 pm

It has to be the profit margins.  The high-end 22 ammo supply never dried up.

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Post by beeser on 11/28/2014, 7:50 pm

I wonder at what point (price and/or availability) the shooting public just says 'screw it', I'll find something else to shoot or spend my money on?

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Post by LateBoomer on 11/28/2014, 9:18 pm

No need for outrage.  It's increased and sustained demand that is making .22 hard to find.  plain and simple.  There has been a large increase in firearm purchases and new .22 platforms often sold with a marketing mantra that tells us to shoot a lot ( e.g. "Kick Brass" from S&W).  Combine that with the recent ammunition shortage that we're coming out of and it's leads to a perfect storm that leaves the shelves bare of .22lr.  

You're right, it isn't horders that are buying all the 22.  It's everyone.  The stores in central ohio get regular shipments of .22lr and impose limits and even still the ammo is gone in less than a day.  Ask yourself, if you could buy .22 without limit at a reasonable price (or even higher), how much would you buy?

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Post by BE Mike on 11/29/2014, 8:30 am

There certainly are people who are buying it up to resell at a profit. There are also panicky people who are hoarding it because of the current administration. I heard on the news today that the FBI reported 144,000 NICS checks on black Friday alone, so it appears that gun ownership is growing. With the prices that are being charged (about double) from just a couple of years ago, you can be sure that the manufacturers and retailers would like to sell as much as they can get and benefit from the windfall. So, IMHO, it is just as simple as, the supply is not meeting the demand.
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Post by dronning on 11/29/2014, 9:18 am

I've shared this math before.  Currently there are about 75million gun owners if 10% of them decided to purchase an extra 1,000 rounds of 22 ammo they would essentially create a total demand that would equal 2 years of industry production.  The ammo industry was in a near sold out situation on 22 ammo before any panic started! They barely stayed ahead of demand with about a 45 day inventory on average and they usually were able to build inventory slightly for seasonal spikes.

When average plinkers, that were use to buying ammo on their way to the range, couldn't find any, they bought ahead and inventoried their supply when they did find some.  Many plinkers I know that maybe had one or 2 boxes of 22 on hand now have 2 or 3 bricks.  Competitive shooters have bought forward too.

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Re: Hoarders!!

Post by DavidR on 11/29/2014, 9:33 am

During the Obama scare many companies rolled out the 22 cal guns in many new configurations, 1911s,ar15 lookers and on and on these were cheap so millions were sold, add this to the fact that there were already 3 times as many 22 guns as other cal. already owned and its easy to see this is the most sought after round in the usa. It will come back, same as all the other it will just take time, being cheap, people buy more of it all this adds to the reason it still is not plentiful.
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Re: Hoarders!!

Post by Wile E Coyote on 11/29/2014, 11:08 am

Hopefully my experience today is a sign of things to come.

The LGS had at least a case of CCI SV on the shelf in brick boxes. Usually they only have a brick on display as single 50 rd boxes and limit sales to 2 boxes per day. This was the first time in over a year that they were selling CCI SV by the brick ($44.90/brick). They also had Federal Premium Gold Medal 922A ($11.99/50) and Federal Bulk ($21.99/325) for sale.

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Post by igolfat8 on 11/30/2014, 10:01 pm

Its certainly available to the right people. Recently a Field & Stream store opened in Columbus, OH. During the 3 day grand opening that had 4 pallets, yes PALLETS (4' x 4' x 4') of .22 ammo on display and for sale...  each day! 525 bulk, 325 bulk, bricks, you name it and it was there with a limit of 2 per person. So over 3 days they sold 12 PALLETS of ammo so its out there for the buying and it was all in the $18 - $25 range. Its a 60 mile drive and I've not been back since so I am not sure if they are maintaining the supply. I must say, it was impressive. I have never seen that much 22 ammo on display in my life. It was encouraging to see.

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Post by BE Mike on 12/2/2014, 8:42 am

igolfat8 wrote:Its certainly available to the right people. Recently a Field & Stream store opened in Columbus, OH. During the 3 day grand opening that had 4 pallets, yes PALLETS (4' x 4' x 4') of .22 ammo on display and for sale...  each day! 525 bulk, 325 bulk, bricks, you name it and it was there with a limit of 2 per person. So over 3 days they sold 12 PALLETS of ammo so its out there for the buying and it was all in the $18 - $25 range. Its a 60 mile drive and I've not been back since so I am not sure if they are maintaining the supply. I must say, it was impressive. I have never seen that much 22 ammo on display in my life. It was encouraging to see.
So, do you think that all that .22 ammo was being shot, resold or hoarded? I think Dick's Sporting Goods owns the F&S stores. I would imagine that they had the .22 ammo for their other stores diverted to this one store for the three days. I would guess that one couldn't buy a box of .22 ammo at any of their other stores during that time period.
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Post by Jerry Keefer on 12/2/2014, 9:14 am

This is a sore issue with me, similar to the e Tartget controversy.. If you google World War II United States war materials production, it will reveal the number of planes, tanks, ships, ammo, etc., the US produced in just a few short years. Not only to supply our own involvement, but to supply most of the allied forces.. So, telling me that we cannot produce .22 ammo in sufficient quanities to supply the American shooter, is BS..
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Post by Axehandle on 12/2/2014, 9:40 am

Hoarder?  I have seen him and he is us!  At least after this last big ammo/reloading supply SNAFU.   My LGs says they just received 200 cases of CCI SV.  Manager said they were the only shop in the country that were willing to pay the price and the only one that ordered it.  FWIW I'll never let my 22 SV ammo and powder, bullet, brass, or primer supply get low again. 10,000 rounds of SV 22LR, 10,000 each of LP and SP primers, with a working 8 pound keg with a backup 8 pounder of paper punching powder on the shelf will be the norm here at my house.   Lots of bullets too with bullet molds and lead for bullet tight spots. Smile

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Post by Ed Hall on 12/2/2014, 10:06 am

Jerry Keefer wrote:This is a sore issue with me, similar to the e Tartget controversy.. If you google World War II United States war materials production, it will reveal the number of planes, tanks, ships, ammo, etc., the US produced in just a few short years. Not only to supply our own involvement, but to supply most of the allied forces.. So, telling me that we cannot produce .22 ammo in sufficient quanities to supply the American shooter, is BS..
There was a different mindset at that time.  Yes, we "could" produce the quantities currently, but we would need someone who "wanted" to.  That's the sore spot.

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Post by dronning on 12/2/2014, 10:22 am

Currently the total industry capacity is less than 5 Billion rounds annually and that's running 24/7.  Why aren't manufacturers putting on more production?  I think they believe as most of us do that this is not a real new demand level so the addition of capacity would be a poor business decision. 

I haven't heard much about the Remington ammo plant that was supposed to open sometime either 2nd or 3rd qtr. this year, I'm not even sure it was going to produce any 22 ammo. If it does produce 22 ammo it would certainly help with the shortage.

What really scares the ammo manufacturers is if people start to use their stockpiles and the bottom drops out of the demand.

Just like Axehandle.  When it was time to buy a case of 22 there wasn't any for months when some Wolf Match Target became available, I bought my usual case.  Then just before it ran out at the vendor I panicked and bought another.  Now my rebuy point isn't when I have a few bricks left, it's before I have to break into that 2nd case.  I have more reloading materials than normal on hand too. 

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Post by Toz35m on 12/2/2014, 1:30 pm

not sure if this will help but it provides some data for the topic.

from http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-22-lr-ammunition-is-made-must-see-video/

22LR ammo production numbers
CCI = 4,000,000
Fedral = 8,000,000
Remington > 4,000,000
Winchester > 4,000,000
Aguela > 4,000,000
All others > 6,000,000

at 24x7 production we are looking at 210 million rounds per week which is 420k bricks/week.

according to Google there are about 51,438 retail gun stores.  This may not include online retailers who just sell ammo.

So to be conservative if we take the ~51k stores they can only get ~8 bricks per week.  Big stores will get more than 8 and small stores will get nothing.

Given there are millions of gun owners it makes sense that 22lr ammo is hard to come buy.  I know there has been a sharp increase in the number of new gun owners in the past few years adding to the demand increase.
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Post by Astroimage2002 on 12/2/2014, 4:03 pm

Axehandle wrote:Hoarder?  I have seen him and he is us!  At least after this last big ammo/reloading supply SNAFU.   My LGs says they just received 200 cases of CCI SV.  Manager said they were the only shop in the country that were willing to pay the price and the only one that ordered it.  FWIW I'll never let my 22 SV ammo and powder, bullet, brass, or primer supply get low again. 10,000 rounds of SV 22LR, 10,000 each of LP and SP primers, with a working 8 pound keg with a backup 8 pounder of paper punching powder on the shelf will be the norm here at my house.   Lots of bullets too with bullet molds and lead for bullet tight spots. Smile
Except for the small pistol primers that sounds like a good start.

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Post by beeser on 12/2/2014, 8:39 pm

Maybe this is a naive response or question but why not just change the game to reflect whatever ammo is available?  The ability to reload gives us some degree of independence.  If there was a substitute for .22 ammo or an alternative cartridge that could be reloaded and the game changed to reflect or allow the change would this topic even come up?  If 1/3 of a match no longer required .22lr ammo would the scarcity of it bother you as much?  It seems to me that consumers of .22lr ammo almost set themselves up for disappointment by being so reliant on it.

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Post by Schaumannk on 12/2/2014, 10:37 pm

beeser wrote:Maybe this is a naive response or question but why not just change the game to reflect whatever ammo is available?  The ability to reload gives us some degree of independence.  If there was a substitute for .22 ammo or an alternative cartridge that could be reloaded and the game changed to reflect or allow the change would this topic even come up?  If 1/3 of a match no longer required .22lr ammo would the scarcity of it bother you as much?  It seems to me that consumers of .22lr ammo almost set themselves up for disappointment by being so reliant on it.
Matches aren't the problem.    Most shooters stock up, and share with their friends.  And I am willing to spend twelve bucks a hundred for good .22 ammo to shoot a match.    What I am unwilling to do, is spend 12 cents a round for practice ammo when I can reload both .45 and 9mm for less than that.

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Post by beeser on 12/3/2014, 8:52 am

Schaumannk wrote:
beeser wrote:Maybe this is a naive response or question but why not just change the game to reflect whatever ammo is available?  The ability to reload gives us some degree of independence.  If there was a substitute for .22 ammo or an alternative cartridge that could be reloaded and the game changed to reflect or allow the change would this topic even come up?  If 1/3 of a match no longer required .22lr ammo would the scarcity of it bother you as much?  It seems to me that consumers of .22lr ammo almost set themselves up for disappointment by being so reliant on it.
Matches aren't the problem.    Most shooters stock up, and share with their friends.  And I am willing to spend twelve bucks a hundred for good .22 ammo to shoot a match.    What I am unwilling to do, is spend 12 cents a round for practice ammo when I can reload both .45 and 9mm for less than that.
This sort of goes to my point but I'll extend the question in another thread - Would you use another caliber reserved for the .22 in competition if allowed to do so?

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