1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

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1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by DavidR on Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:16 pm

Ok, Is there a best amount of spring weight needed to close the slide, in target pistols using light springs, 9-11 lbs?


Last edited by DavidR on Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:27 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:24 pm

Typically no. Recoil spring is to protect frame from impact of cycling slide and return to battery. The only pistols that normally are spring sensitive to going into battery are really tight barrel lug to slide stop pin fit. Typical of some newly built BE pistols. The recoil spring also helps keep the pistol in battery during firing. If the spring is too light your 50 yard groups will be huge! You will wonder what's wrong with your ammo or yourself!!! When it's simply the recoil spring. So I spring to protect frame and ensure reliability. In summary: spring it for recoil, not going into battery.
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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by DavidR on Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:46 pm

ok you brought up slid stop pin tightness, is there any advantage to a super tight lockup as to just a good lockup given it still locks up a 100%

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:55 pm

Just because it's tight doesn't make it right:P)
Many factors to consider with barrel fit. Slide stop pin and bottom barrel lugs are just part of the marriage. A problem I encounter a lot is Les Baer pistols with a wedge fit bottom lug to slide stop pin. It's tight but has practically no engagement to keep barrel in battery during first 0.100" of cycling. Piss poor fit in my opinion. It's marginally skilled labor making up for TIME involved to properly fit a barrel. Over time a tight fit will loosen but still have excellent lockup if done right. A pistol with marginal lockup (like the Baer I just described) will shoot ok from a Ransom but very poorly from hand. It will also have more felt recoil because the pistol will unlock faster. Just one of many factors contributing to a properly fit barrel.
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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by DavidR on Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:27 pm

ok we evolve again, you mention too fast unlocking, so do you advocate the use of a 23#main spring , or a flat bottom firing pin stop or both to slow down the unlocking? A very well known gunsmith  and friend of yours Bob Brown once spoke of using them to get a better burn of the powder.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by kc.crawford.7 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:51 pm

If I may jump in here with Jon.  A heavy main spring and or flat bottom firing pin stop will increase the amount of energy the slide has to overcome to start unlocking.  But the link is the only thing that unlocks the barrel from the slide.  The "gorilla" lock up of days gone by for the RTE shop are a prime example of creating problems letting the gun unlock.  As with todays Baer guns that wedge causes more problems that it solves.  Ideally when I fit a slide stop pin I want the recoil spring to be able to pull the slide fully into battery.  That smooth lockup will last for a very long time and even when it does loosen up the accuracy is not degraded anywhere near as much as a super tight lock up on the pin.  As Jon said, the recoil spring has to be light enough to allow for function, not so light it has a problem returning the slide to battery.  And not so heavy that it interrupts the cycle of function.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Dr.Don on Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Jon,

The "wedge" approach you mentioned explains something I encountered in a local gun shop a year or so ago.  I asked to look at a Les Baer 1911 in the show case.  The salesman cleared it and handed it to me closed.  I habitually clear a gun when handed one and proceeded to check this one.  i couldn't get it open, not with any amount of manual pressure.  i handed it back to the salesman and he couldn't get it open either.  I'm sure Baer makes some nice guns, but this one was fitted waaaaay too tight.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:35 pm

The wedge I'm referring to is that the lugs only make good contact when completely in battery. As the slide moves rearward on the frame the barrel immediately drops from lack of bottom lug support. The lugs are angled (wedged) instead of parallel to frame and slide rails. This only keeps the pistol locked up briefly. It's tight as hell for a moment in time and then loose. Is not forgiving for the shooter when shooting slowfire. When you're building guns quickly and for turning a quick profit this method makes your pistol look/feel like your know what you're doing. Unfortunately it's poor gunsmithing practice. A properly fit barrel will give around .080" of lug bearing on the slide stop before allowing the barrel to drop down from the slide lugs. There's a fine line between slightly too tight and will break in with a little bit of shooting and OMG please unlock without using hardball:P)
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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Froneck on Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:01 pm

Actually the barrel does not drop because of lack of support when shooting. It will when cycling by hand either with a loaded round in the chamber or not. However when fired the pressure exerted buy the case to the slide requires the link to pull the barrel down.
 Too often many shooters when trying to develop light loads cut or install a lighter spring which then creates many other problems. Putting a flat on the slide stop pin is not a good idea especially if you don't know what your doing. The flat will change the relationship of the leading edge on the lower lug that will cause closing problems.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by james r chapman on Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:29 pm

I'm confused. Is their flat on the pin, or the lug???

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Froneck on Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:19 pm

Done right the lower lug has a short tapered flat up to the stop. I understand that some cut a flat on the pin, I've seen a few 1911 done that way, none shot well for any length of time. It's easy to make a 1911 shoot a great group one time, making it function flawlessly while shooting a good group contiguously is where skill and knowledge is required.


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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by james r chapman on Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:24 pm

sounds like the caveman who made the first wheel square......

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Froneck on Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:35 pm

If your building guns fast it's much easier to file or stone the pin, if oops you cut to much get another pin and start over, bad pin may fit another gun.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:31 pm

Majority of USMC built pistols have the slide stop pin altered/fit to smaller diameter than the rest of the pin. They have mastered under sizing the pin so they can put in a larger diameter pin down the road as pistol wears; regardless of method you need to know what you are doing. I've seen a lot of Les Baer pistols butchered like this; didn't know what they were doing. For them it's all about making a buck.
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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by jerry lehrer on Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:54 pm

Jon,

As usual, you are spot on correct on this matter.  Pachmayr has used the variable diameter slide
stop pin many years ago.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by DavidR on Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:12 pm

New issue brass ejection forward sometimes then to right sometimes

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Wobbley on Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:43 pm

Is the forward ejecting brass in the middle of the magazine?

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by DavidR on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:32 pm

Could be just know out of 5 at least 2 will end up forward of the bencz

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Wobbley on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:39 pm

Usually a forward ejection is caused by the brass bouncing off something.  Check your pistol, sometimes there's a telltale mark.  But so long as your gun doesn't bobble, I wouldn't worry.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

Post by Froneck on Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:04 pm

Forward ejecting could be the extractor.

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Re: 1911 recoil spring closing weight and other funtion talk

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