Life After 250+

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Life After 250+

Post by DeweyHales on 4/29/2015, 7:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Fleet and All Navy Awards

Here are the points awarded after Fleets and All Navy East. 

Many shooters beat 90% of their competition, but they did not receive legs. EIC matches are about beating 90% of your fellow competitors on any given day under equal conditions. I argued against the cut score before it was passed, and I am against it now as well. 

I will point out again that I have received points for a 248. In earning that first bronze, I beat many skilled shooters and at least one of America's best warriors. 

If the cut score is kept, Distinguished shooters should feel compelled to shoot at least one EIC match above the cut score per year or forego wearing their badge that year. Anything less would seem unfair given the spirit of the new rule. I wonder how many pins would disappear.

Note:  The title and objective of this thread refers to changes we are now seeing as matches take place using the cut score.


Last edited by DeweyHales on 4/30/2015, 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarification)
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by jmdavis on 4/30/2015, 8:22 am

There were definitely alot of borrowed guns on the line.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 4/30/2015, 8:45 am

Which is great!  It means we had new shooters and that's a good thing.  I heard a lot of junior Sailors asking where to buy a range officer.   They'll get there!  Match monkey got me this time, but not the next!

Lots of guys walked out with the USMC workbook and the AMU marksmanship guide.  250 is achievable and the effort is what makes it worth it.


Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on 4/30/2015, 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/30/2015, 8:57 am

I work on a military base. I spend a great deal of time at the range during the training/prep period before division matches helping/coaching the service members. Many of the shooters have never shot a competition. There will normally be at least one stand out shooter in the group. When they shoot the leg match typically that stand out shooter is the only one to leg or come close to it. The others are cannon fodder. It's par for the course. Cannon fodder doesn't deserve leg points. As far as the borrowed gun thing goes, I've never owned my own ball gun! And I almost never shot ball! I would shoot my typical .22, CF and 45 99.9% the time and when a leg match was coming up I'd shoot the pistol 2-3 times before the match to get used to the recoil and make sure I was zero'd. I went distinguished in 4 matches. Should've been 3 but was scored a miss on a tight group; still pissed about it Razz)   My fundamentals were outstanding and that's why I shot good ball. Unfortunately now we have many shooters who realistically struggle with their wadgun's and think they're going to pick up a ball gun and shoot good scores with it. The ball gun is going to magnify poor fundamentals due to the heavier recoil. With the recent amoo rule change many believe the scores will go up. I only think the better shooters are going to see improvement in their scores. There are a lot of wadgun's out there shooting sub 2" groups at 50 yards and average shooters aren't setting the world on fire with great scores. If you are average you will shoot average scores. These scores typically aren't great! We do have occasionally better days than others, but we normally shoot our average. So I would like to see shooters look at themselves honestly and determine why they're not shooting over 250. A stock 1911 .45 with a trigger job is capable of 250+ all day long in the hands of a skilled shooter. So the pistol isn't the problem. We can now shoot powder puff .45 loads. So the ammunition isn't the problem. The shooter is the weak link in the leg match. Back to the borrowed gun. I don't shoot leg matches anymore but I just shot a service pistol team match score of 274 with 230 gr factory ball. Loaner pistol! If it's important enough to you you'll find a coach/mentor to help you with your fundamentals. Without the fundamentals you'll never shoot quality scores; leg match or not. I think to the discredit of the leg match we've had a tendency to get as many shooters on the line to get the most legs awarded. So thinking that you deserve a leg for beating 90% of the shooters on the line is BS. Go to the All Navy/PAC FLT matches and you can get 100 shooters that've been shooting for only a couple of weeks in their entire lives. 90% of those guys will be beat by the civilian shooting ACE who showed up to get his leg. So I'm pleased that a minimum 250 score has been established. If you can't break 250 then you don't deserve the badge.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by robert84010 on 4/30/2015, 9:01 am

The first year I shot PacFlt a guy shot 283 for the gold and that stuck with me as being the level of competition. The guys I was lucky enough to hang out with and learn from all shot in the 270's, and that became the level of competition to me. I had my own pistol and practiced, I didn't have to drive 3 hours to shoot a match but I did because I knew the level of competition demanded it.
When I went out I didn't magically shoot 270's as some number from thin air, it was the level of competition, I knew I was going to shoot in the 70's and I knew I would get points. I had no idea that I would get gold and go out but I worked harder than the rest of the field, plain and simple.
 I don't keep track of the scores, and I have no idea what other service match scores are, some don't even shoot the NMC for EIC points and that is well within their right. You don't hear Navy shooters whining about it though do you? I think the last match I attended people were getting Navy 10 pointers for 235, and that is just unsat. The match winners are shooting much higher but to get points in range of scores that had become the norm is just not right. It's only because that is the level of competition.
I shot with several guys that didn't own their own pistols or rifles and they shot in the 260's-pistol and 470's-rifle by the end of the second week with beat up old issue guns off the van. Why? because that was the level of competition it took to get what they wanted.

The 250 cut score is the best thing the match directors could have done for the program. It's not about being in the top 10%, it's about a level proficiency that is driven by the level of competition and that has slide badly over recent years. Maybe this year few shot over the line but I bet next year there will be more and that is the kind of people we want wearing a Distinguished Badge. They will rise to the occasion and that is what competition is all about.
What pisses me off is that some people think they get to pick and choose which rule is valid, they changed the rules for a reason. The rules have been changed before any of us here started shooting and there are a couple of rifle rules I don't care for but I carried on within the rules and finished.

edit: Jon, you were typing while I was, and the points are similar. Bob Brown is smiling down upon us.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by robert84010 on 4/30/2015, 5:37 pm

This whole 250 discussion has made me realize that in general terms a big portion of competitors fall into two groups. One that looks at what the match winners and gold medal winners are shooting and another group that looks at what the minimum is. One group looks at the top of the sheet and says that is where I want to be and have to work hard and the other looks lower and says, I can do that I don't need to practice or shoot matches. 
One group talks themselves into scores and the other talks themselves out of scores, guess which one does which? Ever since this cutoff thing started being discussed I often thought, who cares about the minimum? Why would anybody focus on that months before a match? Why is it a topic of conversation?

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 4/30/2015, 5:50 pm

I let the match monkey get me this time, because I set an unhealthy goal, a score, 250 just like you said.  I ended up bombing and well below my average.  I took some advice from a high master buddy afterwards which echoed yours.  Ignore the score, focus on fundamentals and shoot the match like practice and the rest will take care of itself.  I invested in a daisy 717 this week and I'm dry firing 20 minutes with my 1911 like I did before and also doing 30 shots slow fire with the air pistol each day.  The results have been revealing and the ammo is a heck of a lot cheaper. My goal isn't 250 at the next match, it's to execute my shot plan and fundamentals. 

 I want to hook up with a good mentor when I arrive in San Diego, and execute proper fundamentals next year.  Classification and scores will follow.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by KevinB on 4/30/2015, 6:17 pm

robert84010 wrote:
You are saying that those of us that had to shoot hardball, issued hardball at that, should have to go out and shoot a 250 with hand loaded wadcutter because the guy whose badge is so new it isn't even in the mail yet says so? I guess this reminds me of the scariest, and funniest, saying a person in the Navy could ever hear.
"Chief, based on my experience we need to do this job a certain way...." says the newest Ensign on the ship. To which the Chief always says "Yes Sir, based on your experience I will see to it this job is done properly."
Dewey, perhaps you might realize some of us have had the badge so long we don't see the need to wear it. When I won the Pacflt aggregate (and both high golds) as a non Distinguished shooter over 10 years ago, my mentor made sure I got one of his older salty badges to wear on my uniform. Now I know why, there is nothing worse than a booter badge.

Enjoy it Dewey but let's not get carried away.

WOW, I'll be sure not to post when I eventually Leg out so you can p*ss in my cornflakes.  Your attitude is THE PROBLEM with declining participation.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Wobbley on 4/30/2015, 6:23 pm

I saw in rifle shooting many many competitors get to the line and say "all I have to do is shoot a ". And then they'd promptly fall flat.  You can't do that; every match has to be shot the same. Your best effort for each and every shot and the legs will come.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by DeweyHales on 4/30/2015, 6:32 pm

Robert,

Since this is my post and question, can I assume that your comment is directed toward me?

Either way, I'll address it. I've shot matches for eight years. During that time I've shot every match I could. That's 24 indoor league matches per year and 14 outdoor matches per year plus regionals,  states, Quantico, NJ, and the Eastern Games. I've been to Perry twice just for CMP day. That's twenty hours of driving for 32 minutes of shooting. I've shot almost as many rifle matches each year as well. 

I've shot irons only for a few years now. I shoot jacketed, full power ammo. 

I got my first points with a stock Beretta. I have points with two other Berettas, and I got my hard leg with a 1911 just as a challenge to myself. That's points with four separate guns. People like to say the 1911 is the harder gun, but I actually injured my elbow firing the Beretta. 

Along the way, I've made High Master with the Service Rifle. My top scores in rifle are 483 CMP and 493 NRA. I need one final leg with that rifle to go Double. I've won numerous other awards and have a treasure trove of medals, plaques, and certificates. I've often been that guy everyone else is chasing. 

I'm proud of the work and my scores (even that 248) especially while working, self funding, volunteer coaching an NCAA rifle program and battling a couple health conditions that make everyday things a challenge. 

The best part of all of it has been the people. Many have helped guide and motivate me. Many have become close friends. Like those that have helped me, I've always got time for those looking to learn or trying to get better. I'm curious by nature. I ask a lot of questions. That's how this whole discussion got started. 

All of us are pursuing some goal. It isn't always the same goal. And, the most direct path isn't always best.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by robert84010 on 4/30/2015, 6:49 pm

Jayhawk, when you get to S.D. the mentor and answers you seek are at the Dulzura monthly matches. I'm not sure about the status of the Camp Pendleton match since range buildings burned down a year or so ago. Shoot nothing but iron sights and the pistol you plan on getting your points with. Enjoy the weather!

Dewey, I guess I was responding to you since I copied your posting. I don't know what to say about your infomercial. congratulations on achieving what others have done, but didn't feel the need tell others that they need to meet the new standards. I don't understand how you decided the cutoff rule shouldn't last but that others that have already earned their badge need to reshoot above a 250, like it's some kind of yearly qualification now. I guess my attitude has me confused.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by DeweyHales on 4/30/2015, 7:52 pm

Thanks for the entertainment, Robert.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/30/2015, 7:55 pm

I think the drawer full of gold CMP medals are all those old distinguished shooters need to prove they earned their badges fair and square. I don't think those previously distinguished shooters have anything to prove....especially to those of us shooting softballs.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Colt711 on 4/30/2015, 11:02 pm

I won my "Distinguished" in '81. Perty twice, Bristol & Canton McKInley ea once. All "hard legs". The lowest score a 271. I regularly shot in the 270's & 80's in leg matches for several yrs. I'm 73, have rotator cuff damage & severe arthritis and now someone says "heres a bright idea....you aren't qualified to wear it".

 And how about the shooter who had it pinned on his suit for all to see at his wake? Should CMP have somebody remove it?

Oh yeah, I'm supposed to feel bad for somebody who didn't get any points for a 248?

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/30/2015, 11:35 pm

Dewey,

USMC recruit training and School of Infantry are different now than they were when I did it in 1991.

Should I have to justify the fact that I earned that Eagle, Globe, and Anchor and those Sergeant Stripes?

Those kids who are becoming Marines today are still earning the title even though it's much easier than it was for me, and when I earned my title, it was much easier than the guys that earned it before me.

But we are all still Marines--and we all EARNED IT in our time....and it's ours to hold with pride.

Same goes for the badge.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by DeweyHales on 4/30/2015, 11:46 pm

Ron,

Those are all great scores. Congratulations!  I train in the hopes of being that good one day. I'm not done yet. Guys like Rob and Clarence keep me motivated. I see them shoot good scores, and I do my best to follow. 

There are people here that think guys shooting lower scores shouldn't be wearing the badge. If 250 is the minimum score to earn one, my devil's advocate question is "should it not also be a minimum score to wear one?"  I'm not advocating a position but posing a thought provoking question. Obviously, a guy or gal with the badge should wear it proudly forever. But, I'd love to see them still shooting matches too. 

Most badge winners stop shooting the gun after winning the award. We need those badge winners to set an example for those folks coming through the ranks. The new guys will see good scores and know it's routinely possible. They'll see folks to ask questions. Now, there are a lot of badges but few winners still on the line. Luckily, I have some in my area but way fewer than there could be. 

Robert and I agree, shooters gravitate toward what they see others do. They push each other to all be better. If we could keep the Distinguished guys going, I'll wager we'd have higher scores overall. We wouldn't need a cut score. We didn't need one for 120 years. We "need" one now because the best guys quit showing the rest of us how it's done.
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by dronning on 5/1/2015, 12:42 am

Once the distinguished badge is earned it's yours forever, no one can take it away, just like the 2600 & 2650 club.

The cut score was put in place for a solid reason so you can't put 10 Glocks on the line and have the one guy with a 1911 get a leg scoring a 199. They based the 250 on where the top 10% scores have been coming in at Perry, right around 250-255.

At my clubs EIC matches you need to shoot 255 or better or you won't be in the running for points.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by robert84010 on 5/1/2015, 4:13 am

Dewey, 
The only reason I chimed in here and I find rather ironic that you mention having a HM in rifle, you aren't the first person to think that qualifies you to speak about the fleet match rules, is because you seem to think you know everything about the balancing act performed by the match staff and what they are trying to accomplish and can therefore speak about rules. I have a HM card in rifle also but I don't see how that qualifies me to recommend how the Marine Corps division match should be run, or the Army matches. so my point. Your original post, before edit, mentioned that it wasn't right that the Navy match had few Navy shooters above the 250 cut and that maybe the 250 cut isn't a good thing. If guys like Don Hamilton, Gasper Defino, Joe Witherell or Adm. Burke, the man that started the Navy small arms training units, were here and said that I would give it some weight. But, I bet they would say it's a pretty fair rule because earning a badge is worth the effort to top 250 and it's not just about out shooting 90% of the field any given day. 
You are undermining the Navy match staff by voicing your opinion about THEIR rules for THEIR program, it's not your program. Let me guess it was your first time shooting there? Maybe second?  That doesn't seem right to me. I shot the matches 6 of the last 8 years I was in and participated on the match staff and attended the meetings 8 months prior to the match to get things started. Once again you have no idea the balancing act going on, and now with almost no support from the Navy. BTW, it's not part of anybody's job to run the matches, it's all volunteers, for the love of the game, if you will.

You are currently locked into this game, and it is obviously a huge part of your life, and I am happy for you, I was once upon a time before life progressions took over. 15 years from now your life will probably not be the same as today, that can also be a good thing, and I doubt you will appreciate some new guy calling you out that you need to prove something.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by DeweyHales on 5/1/2015, 11:16 am

Robert, 

I'm talking about the CMP rule change. The Navy and USAF adopted it. What the Armed Forces do is their business, and I'll support them. What the CMP does is as much my business as anyone's. 

I'm a civilian that loves the opportunity to shoot shoulder to shoulder with these folks. I try to go every year since civilians were allowed. 

I got to chat with Bartel, Ray, Ryan and others about what a great job they're doing. Two years ago, I got to talk to the Officer that fights for the funding. I told him about some training I gave at Bragg. These sailors won't make the mistakes I saw because of Fleets. He was struck by a neutral party with outside perspective telling him the story. 

I'd love to see the days return where ever base had a team. I only want the best for these guys and gals. 

This forum is for discussion. Thanks to everyone for voicing their opinion. 

Best regards.
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What if I earned my hard leg with a 251 score...

Post by C.Perkins on 5/1/2015, 6:24 pm

Question to the shooters on this board.

I have 17 EIC matches under my belt since my first one on 04/26/2009 in which I shot a 249-4x (no points earned).
My lowest score since then was a 254-4x (no points earned).
My highest score since then was a 278-6x (6 points & EIC silver & CMP bronze).
Best NMC was during the Desert mid winter hard ball 900 match in 2011 shooting a 288-8x.

Question is, do I fall into the category of I did not earn it cause I had an off day shooting a 251 to earn my hard leg, even though my overall scores average 266 over the 17 EIC matches that I have shot ?
Also no softball loads, all shot with Atlanta Arms 115gr AMU in my M9.

Just feeling out the mindset of shooters out there overall.

Clarence
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Colt711 on 5/1/2015, 6:45 pm

This is just a guess, but there must not be a HiPower-L Forum?

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by Colt711 on 5/1/2015, 6:52 pm

C.Perkins wrote:Question to the shooters on this board.

Question is, do I fall into the category of I did not earn it cause I had an off day shooting a 251 to earn my hard leg, even though my overall scores average 266 over the 17 EIC matches that I have shot ?
Also no softball loads, all shot with Atlanta Arms 115gr AMU in my M9.

Just feeling out the mindset of shooters out there overall.

Clarence
You might try sending your Shooting resume to CMP?

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by C.Perkins on 5/1/2015, 7:06 pm

Ron, you are a funny guy and what I expected for an answer...
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Re: Life After 250+

Post by r_zerr on 5/1/2015, 8:29 pm

No, there is no HiPower-L Forum, but there is Nationalmatch.us and Longrange.com, where the rifle shooters normally hang out.

Since there may be read in as some "ill feelings" about "rifle shooters" on this forum, let me add my 10 cents: There are a lot of rifle shooters that are interested in shooting pistol (as well) and who are also interested in shooting leg matches (as well).  They are some of your potential cannon fodder, and at the same time, have potential for sticking around.....unless people are not civilized, in which case, the sport won't grow.

As for the various rule changes, well, having been shooting competitively for almost 4 decades, I have watched things change in smallbore rifle, 3 position (international), hipower rifle, long range, and rifle leg matches. In the long run, the water always seeks its own level. I tend not to sweat it.

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Re: Life After 250+

Post by dronning on 5/1/2015, 8:48 pm

r_zerr wrote:No, there is no HiPower-L Forum, but there is Nationalmatch.us and Longrange.com, where the rifle shooters normally hang out.....
Ron Zerr

All things highpower:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php

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Re: Life After 250+

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