The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

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The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by sixftunda on Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday the CMP held a rimfire and pistol EIC match at the new range in Talladega.  Dane Hogle and myself made some inquiries about the match.  Specifically how the electronic targets worked.

It has come to our attention that the targets were scored using the center of the bullet hole, not the edge as prescribed by the rules.  This information came from an email written by COO Mark Johnson to Dane.

This is a clear rule violation.

5.10.1 Scoring Individual Shots
All shots shall be scored according to the highest value scoring ring that is hit or touched by that shot. A shot hole where the outside edge of the shot hole touches or is tangent to the outside edge of the scoring ring must be scored the higher value.

Scoring targets using the center point of the bullet hole will cost shooters match points and even worse, cost them precious leg points.

Electronic targets may very well be the future of our sport. The problem that many of us have is the way certain people at the CMP and NRA are trying to implement them before they are truly ready to be used.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by sixftunda on Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:51 pm

It has been confirmed that bullet diameter was not used in scoring.  The center of the bullet has to be inside the scoring ring in order to receive the higher value.  The target system they are using is capable of scoring according to caliber but the CMP is NOT using that feature. 

Dane sent a picture to the COO of the CMP Mark Johnson of a bullet whose edge crosses the scoring line along with the following:
This is a picture of a 185g JHP used in an EIC service pistol match held June 6th at Canton Ohio.
> As you can see the proper value of this shot was determined to be a 10. According to your statements, the value of this shot, if the match was held at Talledega,  would be a nine ( center of the shot whole. )
> If you do not take in consideration the diameter of the bullet fired, you are in violation of rule CMP rule 5.10.1
> Therefore the validity of the scoring of all targets at the EIC service pistol match, EIC Rim fire Match held at Talledega is now in question pursuant to the CMP's current rulebook.
> My fellow competitors and I shall be waiting to see the new rules and procedures to be instituted before your next EIC pistol match at  Talledega.
>
> Thank you,
> Dane Hogle

Mr. Johnson's response:

Mr. Hogle,

The match scores will stand.  As the Chief Operations Officer of the CMP, the final decision is mine to make after close consultation with the members and chairman of the CMP rules committee.  They have been given copies of your below email.

This issue, as well as other issues that arise periodically, will be addressed and if need be the rulebook will be changed in order to remove any ambiguity found within.

Respectfully,

Mark Johnson,
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by sixftunda on Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:57 pm

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=167920


This thread is also worth reading.  Even rifle shooters are not happy about how scoring is being done.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by john bickar on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:41 pm

Wow.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by john bickar on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:45 pm

I was thinking about posting an "Old Man Yells at Cloud" rant about the new EIC ammo rules making a mockery of the Distinguished Pistol program, but it looks like that work has been taken off of my hands.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:02 pm

sixftunda wrote:It has been confirmed that bullet diameter was not used in scoring.  The center of the bullet has to be inside the scoring ring in order to receive the higher value.  The target system they are using is capable of scoring according to caliber but the CMP is NOT using that feature.
.................................
Mark Johnson,
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program

WHAT! The target systems can work with different calibers, BUT you aren't using that feature??? You implement a potentially great technology but don't implement a critical feature??? If it was an oversight I'd understand, but to knowingly disable it, I am baffled.

That is a huge disappointment, I had planned a trip there later this summer, but I will not be shooting there until this is fixed!

- Dave
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:50 pm

I heard today, from a very good source, that the Camp Perry E-Target project has been scraped..
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by Rob Kovach on Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:17 am

Considering that the Cardinal shooting sports complex in Ohio is building a brand new pistol facility that will have enough capacity to host the national pistol matches using turning paper targets, it really doesn't matter what they do with the target system at Camp Perry. We can shoot at Cardinal instead.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by LenV on Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:23 am

I heard that the NRA has Perry leased till 2021.

Len
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by Jack H on Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:42 am

If tip scoring becomes the norm on E targets, will paper targets change too, or keep their advantage of caliber scoring?
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:21 am

The CMP is contradicting itself:

"We did use the specific caliber selection. KTS has two settings, SBR or BBR for each distance. For the Garand matches it was on BBR. Past that, it is not caliber specific, just "bore" specific. Smallbore Rifle, Big Bore Rifle. Not sure where you got information that we didn't, since we wouldn't have been able to run the match if we hadn't."

They are admitting they have only 2 masks for rifle BBR & SBR. There are only 2 masks currently set up for pistol too SBP (.22) & BBP (.45). KTS can set up a mask for ANY caliber from .17 to .50.

I'm sure the Service Pistol match was set up with the .45 mask so anyone shooting a 9MM had an advantage.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by james r chapman on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:19 am

And to think the Patriots got fined $1,000,000 for deflated footballs...
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by sixftunda on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:42 am

Whether they use a mask is irrelevant in my opinion because they still are not scoring the higher value of a shot unless the center of the hole is in the higher value portion of the target.  They might as well just leave it set on .22.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by sixftunda on Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:57 am

james r chapman wrote:And to think the Patriots got fined $1,000,000 for deflated footballs...

Unfortunately in the case the CMP is the NFL and they are choosing the path of changing the rules after the fact.  Any other club holding a match like this could have been subject to protest. 
Rather than make changes to the etargets so they follow the scoring rules THAT EVERY OTHER EIC MATCH BEING HELD FOLLOWS, they plan on simply changing the rules:

"We have changes to make in the rule books to specifically adjust for electronic targets."

Why even bother changing the rules if you just issue a statement after each match that the scores stand?  That's what they did for their first match.

Again, I am in favor of etargets.  Sometimes traditions do need to change and should be changed. 
When did following the rules become a "tradition" that can be changed?
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:56 am

sixftunda wrote:Whether they use a mask is irrelevant in my opinion because they still are not scoring the higher value of a shot unless the center of the hole is in the higher value portion of the target.  They might as well just leave it set on .22.

The software CAN take into consideration the diameter of the bullet and score based on if the outer edge of the bullet breaks the scoring ring.

I'm not sure they (CMP) all know what they are taking about because over on the CMP site they contradicted themselves in one statement they said scored on center of impact and another time said scored based on diameter of the bullet - from center of impact.

Everything is calculated off of center of impact. If it's only scoring on center of impact what is the size of the center of impact .1 MM in diameter or .001MM in diameter?

In true terms the system determines center of impact and has the ability to use bullet diameter to determine if the scoring ring was broken/touched and will give the higher score, i.e. center of impact in the 9 ring, bullet diameter breaks 10 ring it gets scored a 10.

Not implementing bullet diameter scoring is just stupid!

- Dave



Last edited by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by james r chapman on Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:58 am

So basically, you will be penalized in scoring by being required to shoot a .45 yet be scored as a .22. Me thinks they want the .22 EIC to replace the service EIC.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:20 am

james r chapman wrote:So basically, you will be penalized in scoring by being required to shoot a .45 yet be scored as a .22. Me thinks they want the .22 EIC to replace the service EIC.

Not if they set the system up correctly. You will be scored based on the caliber you shoot.

If they are really scoring on point of impact you could be losing points with a .22, because the point of impact could be as small as 0.001MM.

We have to drive it home to them - get it right - use the systems capabilities!

- Dave
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by james r chapman on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:24 am

But, the clear point is, they are not, and don't appear to want to use the system potential.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by jmdavis on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:48 am

Guys,

My opinion is that they know there was a problem, but they don't want to invalidate the results. Chances are some silent correction will take place before the next match. I hope so anyway. Just changing the rules, is not a means of problem solving. It is a means of CYA.

The overlays mentioned on the CMP board are one for 22 and one for 45. If that is true, 9's got a bonus. On the rifle side, it may be that the .30 cal guys got shafted. I wish that I could have been there to shoot and see for myself.

My only experience with e-targets is for air gun. But I'm pretty sure that the system took bullet diameter as well as center impact into consideration.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by Dr.Don on Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:49 am

I really don't have a horse in this race, but one of the questions to consider is whether the target system can accomodate different caliber masks by shooting position.  The software may be setup assuming everyone is shooting the same caliber, which is a more common situation in most matches.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:43 am

These electronic targets are far from being inexpensive cause their design and capabilities cost money.
Makes no sense what so ever to not use these machines to their full and designed capability.
Makes no sense to change the scoring rules just because I say so and that is final.
I hope it turns out to be a mistake and they figure it all out.
If not, this is a bunch of bull crap.

Clarence
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by DavidR on Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:45 am

The response from the head of the CMP sounded arrogant imo. There is only one way to bring a giant down to our level and get things fixed, everyone must refuse to shoot matches that are not run by the current rules. A few matches with no or a few participants(which would not be able to offer points) would make them fix things.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:54 am

Dr.Don wrote:I really don't have a horse in this race, but one of the questions to consider is whether the target system can accomodate different caliber masks by shooting position.  The software may be setup assuming everyone is shooting the same caliber, which is a more common situation in most matches.

KTS is in direct competition with MegaLink and I know for a fact on the MegaLink you can adjust by lane. I shoot a winter league in MN where they are shooting F-Class targets on 1/2 the lanes and we shoot a XTC on the other lanes. Not only different target masks but a timed event too.

According to the technical data KTS allows the user to develop custom matches.

- Dave
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:40 am

I just logged out of the CMP forum after reading the thread.

Dronnings question was pretty much dodged and unanswered.

From what I read it looks like the up and coming e-target scoring is the new wave of the future for competitions.

Bullet tip scoring.
So if you want an X, you better put the tip of that .22 or .32 or.38 or .45 on that x ring.

Going to sit back with my popcorn and beer.

Clarence


Posted by the CMP...

Correct, but as of right now, the scoring ring will have to be cut by the tip of the bullet. I cannot comment as to whether or not we will seek to have that changed but that is highly doubtful since it is the most accurate by the tip of the bullet. The game is changing, shooting on electronics will require more precision as opposed to who created the larger hole.
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by dronning on Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:01 pm

I'm still after them to clarify.

I think they actually don't know how it works!! On one hand they say they can't shoot an event without a mask, so if you are going by bullet tip why have a .22 & a .45 mask???

The statement the tip of the bullet is more accurate is crap - what we are asking for is to score based on the tip of the bullet + bulletdiameter/2. How is that less accurate, unless they have some kind of new math.

- Dave
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

Post by C.Perkins on Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:05 pm

Dave;

I just posted my question to CMPMikeD right after yours on the CMP forum.
I guess we will see what transpires out of all this.

Clarence
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Re: The electronic targets at Talladega CMP range

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