lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

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lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:54 pm

starting a new thread to continue this thing

Rob, ive run many thousands of powder coated with loads as low as 3gr of BE
but almost all of them were LPP
ive only run these SP brass thru a few times and i mostly use fluffier powders  red dot,700x and the like,
i dont really use BE that much, i guess ive been holding back my stock while i use up the other powders i have

that bullet in the picture has been squeezed by the bore, its at .450" the size of the bore in the Kart barrel
they started life at .452"
now remember that bullet was probably run at 300fps or something very slow like that
so it wont show much evidence of powder burn

i reassembled those 50 that i pulled (remember everyone had the proper amount of powder)
and i ran them out today (mostly in my .45scp revolver)
i had 1 of those that went pppfffttt  and the bullet hit the target and landed on the berm
i have it on my desk. i heard it go POP and i heard it smack the target SLOW!
here is one thing that i didnt attribute to any thing  but i bet its the cause
the butt end of the bullets when i pulled them had a coating of powder on them from static charge on the polyester coating
it fell right back in the case when i brushed it off.
im betting that that powder (im sure 1/2 gr or something tiny) was the only powder that ignited in those pppffftt rounds.
the primer fires, its blast hits the bullet butt and ignites that bit of powder and doesnt ignite the rest of it laying way below
the flash hole,as i had seen plenty of unburnt powder in the bore after a pffffttt
it couldnt be just the primer driving the bullet out the bore thru the target and down range
so we had to have a bit of powder helping out.

so unless im in need of bloopers
im using fluffy powders with SPP
or one could try SPM or heaven forbid SRP

ohh and for Rob
i use a auto disc pro on the load master
it has no trouble dropping what i ask of it using BE
other bigger flake powders dont work so well in light weights
as a side note this 3.4 gr load when it lights is a real good shooter in my 1911
not as well in the revolver as it has to short of barrel, but still a fun shoot


Last edited by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by LenV on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:15 pm

Since you started a new thread I can ask a couple more questions. I know you said that you hadn't seated the bullets and thus had no crimp but I don't notice any crimp line on the cases. Did you have to re-flare the case to get the bullets back in? If I pull any of mine apart I still have the old crimp line showing. I also have a tiny depression in the bullet from the crimp. I ask these questions because I know how finicky BE powder is to a tight crimp. Just trying to eliminate another variable.

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:32 pm

OldMaster65 wrote:Since you started a new thread I can ask a couple more questions.
Len

Im glad your following up with me Len !
yes i had to rebell to drop them back in (and my bullets are SOFT so i bell big and deep)
and i recrimped them to .469" as i do
you wont see anything on those bullets they just dont show it
that top band is very narrow
im sure if these were the H&G #68 style you might see something on the top band
here is what that batch looked like when i first loaded them

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by LenV on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:43 pm

Your right. That is a very narrow band. Your camera skills put mine to shame but this is what my taper crimp looks like. Lot's more noticeable.


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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:59 pm

ive made plenty that have a good taper on the lip
but these dont show it so much
i mess around alot, i wanna know how and why and prove it to myself
thats how this whole thing started
me messing around
a couple months ago i found a great way to keep from squeezing my soft bullets to death
here is a blurry pic from a study of case expanders i did

i save the last .030-.040" for the firm part of the seating
and give it a reasonable crimp
this process has worked awesomely
not a single issue till the small primer fiasco

if anyone is interested
here is a link to the collection of work from my study
A trip to Expander Land
just click on the post with the pix in it and you find 12 images with text
i hate squishing my bullets to death!

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by LenV on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:05 am

And that explains why I am going around yelling "Where's the crimp?". You hid it. Smile

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:09 am

The Lee is notorious for static electricity causing bridging in the powder system.  This causes extremely inconsistent powder charges.  I use a Lee for my lead bullets and learned this 1st hand.
Run a dryer sheet through all of the parts of the powder feeding channel.  When you said the bullet was causing clinging, roll the bullets in a dryer sheet also.

When I had the bridging problem, I had a couple of squibs--but with lead bullets.  My bullets were cast and had a very similar mold to your green bullets.  The bullets obturated very well.  There was obvious bore sealing into the grooves, and the bullet base really didn't look beveled anymore.  The minor explosion that preceded the squib firing obturated the base and the rifling grooves on my loads, but not on your Powdercoated load that you showed on the other thread.

Are you powdercoating your own bullets?  If you are, why don't you make some bullets with just primers and one set with powdercoated bullets and another set with just lead and compare the signs of sealing.  Do a set with LPP and another set with SPP and compare.

Making us guess what happened to your bad batch is just that---guessing.  You will need to test to come to a valid conclusion.

What does your barrel slug to?

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:22 am



I also want to make some things clear.

There are plenty of people who have successfully shot LEAD rounds at 3.0gr or even lower charges of bullseye over the years, but there are NOT many people who have tested .45ACP loads that light with powdercoated bullets or small pistol primers.
That means there aren't many people to advise you what caused the problem.

When you described a pppffftttt sound that sounds like an unsealed bore.  The only way you are going to be able to isolate the cause is by making more loads that have everything the same except the primers in one test group, and another with everything the same except the bullets.

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:35 am

yeah Rob i do cast and coat my own
and i had planned on seeing if just a primer would run one down range i dont think so....but...  it would be fun wouldnt it
the barrel in my 1911 slugs at .4501"
and both of the recovered bullets are just that size

i shot up the rest of the bad batch
and the ones that i reassembled
and shoot nicely they did
except for that 1 round
as a test i will do the same load, same bullet but LPP
and see what i find
i bet they will just shoot perfectly

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:39 am

Really i wasnt looking for a answer (im pretty good at digging deep)
i just wanted to make others aware that all might not be rosey
on the SPP 45 brass front
i shoot enough every week that i can do plenty of testing
i wish i could replicate failure consistently
thats sounds counter productive, but it would prove out observations

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:04 am

my eyes are old, but, I still don't see where that bullet sealed the bore......

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You won't

Post by Fire Escape on Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:01 am

james r chapman wrote:my eyes are old, but, I still don't see where that bullet sealed the bore......


I expect (but have no proof) that the coating is perhaps somewhat elastic and that you won't see the 'normal' evidence that the bullet sealed to the bore. When I looked at the picture it reminded me of all the 'hoopla' about moly coated rifle bullets a decade or so back. The pictures of fired moly coated bullets never seemed (to me) to have fully engraved rifling on them. Of course they did shoot, otherwise there would not have been so many singing their praise......haven't heard much of that song lately though.


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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:35 am

since these bullets are bigger than the bore when they are sitting in the case
they must seal the bore
there wasnt enough pressure behind that bullet
to swat a mosquito

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:12 am

guncheese wrote:i wish i could replicate failure consistently

I think it's too soon to say the ppppffffttt was related to the small pistol primer or anything else at this point.

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by james r chapman on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:32 pm

Can you post a picture of your slug from slugging your barrel?


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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:13 pm

james r chapman wrote:Can you post a picture of your slug from slugging your barrel?


nope its been smelted and turned into bullets
but i can do it again





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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by BE Mike on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:56 am

I don't mean to sound gruff, but this whole topic is just academic, so far. No bullseye pistol shooter is using loads of Alliant Bullseye powder this light. Although the photos are nice and the bullets are pretty colors, I see this as an exercise in futility for bullseye pistol shooters. Other shooters on this site have stated that they have tested the small vs. large primer pocket theory and haven't noticed any appreciable difference. If you really want to do something bullseye pistol related, then load up some of those pretty bullets with a known good charge (4.0- 4.2 grains), put a good bullseye pistol in a Ransom Rest and see what kind of ten shot groups they shoot at 50 yards.

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by jmdavis on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:49 am

Didn't Jerry K, have some posts about a 2.9gr BE load? That was in a lightened slide wadcutter gun, though I think.

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by DavidR on Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:55 am

So is there any ransome rest data on these painted bullets?

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:06 am

BE Mike wrote:but this whole topic is just academic

yes it is! almost purely acedemic
i am not a bullseye shooter the only local shooter i know of is Chip, and he has to travel to compete
there are .22 leagues locally  but im not interested really
but i follow very similar disciplines, hence my hanging about here asking acedemic questions
and i do beg to differ on the light loads (not going to reference it here, but there is plenty of info on that)
ive shot thousands of loads this light and lighter and they always go bang
till Mr. SPP was used
so yes purely acedemic
but arent you the least bit interested?

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:13 am

DavidR wrote:So is there any ransome rest data on these painted bullets?

i wish there was
and if anyone has access to one
and wishes to spend the time
i would be very happy to load up what ever is needed
and ship it out, as that would be the first time anybody has done more than shoot them off bags

anybody game?

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by james r chapman on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:29 pm

What about chronograph data? Or did I miss it...

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:12 pm

james r chapman wrote:What about chronograph data? Or did I miss it...
ive shot lots over the chrono
but not as a test from one to another
just to see where i am
i like reloading and testing as much as shooting (even more now that the pinched nerve in my neck has affected the control of my right hand)

but i have lots of data like this

Description: LEE 0.452
Notes 1: LEE 0.452 452-200-SWC 200 0.578
Notes 2: 4.2 be
Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.127
Bullet Weight (gr): 200.00
Temp: 29 °F
BP: 30.11 inHG
Shots
# FPS\FT-LBS
10 771\264
9 721\231
8 742\245
7 757\255
6 719\230
5 743\245
4 747\248
3 740\243
2 759\256
1 769\263
Average: 746.80
StdDev: 17.81
Min: 719
Max: 771
Spread: 52
True MV: 753.50
Shots/sec: 0.33
Group Size (IN): 0.00


and you sure learn quick about powder drops and such

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by guncheese on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:18 pm

i think what we should do is just forget i ever brought this all up
it seems to create more turmoil than anything

mods  please feel free to delete this thread

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

Post by james r chapman on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:33 pm

No, I meant chrono data for your super low loads that are causing you the trouble, not a well established 4.2 gr BE load....

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Re: lets talk ppppffffttttt ! err.... pop!

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