M41 Cleanup

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M41 Cleanup

Post by Axehandle on Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:33 am

Picked up a backup M41 S&W.   Little gun functioned fine but was an older A prefix, cocked indicator, gun.  It was a bit fussy taking off and putting on barrels too.   Decided to send it to KC just to have it checked out and to clean up anything that needed attention and to set the trigger to the proper weight.  Having the magazine disconnector disabled too.   Here in the second bullseye episode of my life I actually LIKE to dry fire a few during the prep period.  Putting the magazine in the gun to dry fire I know it is just a matter of time before I send one down range.   KC called last weekend.  Gun is pretty much ready to come home.  Expecting to check it out and immediately send M41 #1 to him for the same treatment.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by orpheoet on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:58 am

I recently bought a mid eighties 41. So far it functions flawlessly. However the trigger feels a bit creepy and who knows when it was last gone over. I'm debating sending in a gun that hasn't had a single problem for an issue that might just be me!

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Sa-tevp on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:33 am

The Ruger MkIII I use for indoor competition has a working magazine disconnect. I use a magazine with the guts removed for dryfire and reassembly.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:29 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:The Ruger MkIII I use for indoor competition has a working magazine disconnect. I use a magazine with the guts removed for dryfire and reassembly.
I was about to suggest this same thing.  I re-enabled my magazine disconnector in my 46 so I could use my gun in BE competition.  I did have it disqualified last time a referee checked it over.  I really only took it out of the safe, where it's been for years, to see if I should use it as a backup, but had it checked and it failed for the mag disconnector and the trigger weight.  I've been using my 208s all this century and have a backup slide for it because the firing pin is not an easy fix at a match.

Anyway, The NRA has officially told me the magazine disconnectors must function, so therefore, my suggestion is to use a magazine shell in those unfortunately made guns.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by orpheoet on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:51 pm

It's a good thing they never checked my MKIII. I removed the disconnect before I knew the rule....

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:02 pm

orpheoet wrote:It's a good thing they never checked my MKIII. I removed the disconnect before I knew the rule....

Now you've done it.
That guilty look on your face will draw attention to your gun, triggering an inspection.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Axehandle on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:07 pm

I'd have never thought the magazine disconnector would  be a part of the NRA rules.   Sound like a knee jeck reaction to all the firing pin stuff in 1911s these days.   I think the NRA should make it a rule that all guns go through a safety check and trigger weight in at registered matches like the military does at the military matches.    
lol!

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Astroimage2002 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
Sa-tevp wrote:The Ruger MkIII I use for indoor competition has a working magazine disconnect. I use a magazine with the guts removed for dryfire and reassembly.
I was about to suggest this same thing.  I re-enabled my magazine disconnector in my 46 so I could use my gun in BE competition.  I did have it disqualified last time a referee checked it over.  I really only took it out of the safe, where it's been for years, to see if I should use it as a backup, but had it checked and it failed for the mag disconnector and the trigger weight.  I've been using my 208s all this century and have a backup slide for it because the firing pin is not an easy fix at a match.

Anyway, The NRA has officially told me the magazine disconnectors must function, so therefore, my suggestion is to use a magazine shell in those unfortunately made guns.

Ed, 

You have a 46? What barrel length? What year? ...I have one and could not bring meself to mount a rail on it. Solution was simple, buy a Clark Barrel Smile

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Keyholed on Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:41 am

orpheoet wrote:It's a good thing they never checked my MKIII. I removed the disconnect before I knew the rule....

I dutifully handed the man a magazine when he asked for it. I was under the impression at the time that, since it wasn't a safety feature, it could be disabled.

It's a ridiculous ruling. I think that shooters should be as free as possible to compete with each other irrespective of the limitations of money or equipment. It's one of the things that makes bullseye special compared to gear-heavy disciplines like IDPA, IPSC, and ICORE. Mandating a magazine disconnect if one is standard means making a distinction between shooters who've taken the time and expense to acquire a good out-of-production Mk II, and those who purchased a Mk III. Disabling the disconnect is an easy, low-cost way of simplifying the Mk III trigger mechanism that most shooters can perform without the aid of a gunsmith. Achieving a Mk II-similar trigger with the Mk III stock components, therefore, adds to both the expense and expertise required to maximizing the Mk III's potential.

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Rule 3: " All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."

Post by Richard Ashmore on Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:58 am

Axehandle wrote:I'd have never thought the magazine disconnector would  be a part of the NRA rules.   Sound like a knee jeck reaction to all the firing pin stuff in 1911s these days.   I think the NRA should make it a rule that all guns go through a safety check and trigger weight in at registered matches like the military does at the military matches.    
lol!

  NRA Conventional Pistol Rule 3 has, for as long as I can recall, explicitly stated "All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."  Nothing new about it.

  I, too, favor firearms being checked prior to firing.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Axehandle on Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:43 am

Bet a proper lawyer could interpret that ruling into saying that the trigger has to stay as delivered too.  After all they are set heavy for "safety" Shocked

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by orpheoet on Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:25 am

I've moved on to a 41 for Bullseye,but my MKIII did pass for an EIC match this past Sunday without the disconnect.

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Some days you get the bull, some days you get the horn...

Post by Richard Ashmore on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:06 am

orpheoet wrote:I've moved on to a 41 for Bullseye,but my MKIII did pass for an EIC match this past Sunday without the disconnect.

  You were lucky, and your luck may continue.  OTOH, you may find yourself in the same situation as a competitor on Range 4 at Camp Perry this year.  He had removed the firing pin safety from his pistol, and was DQ'd during the .45 NMC.

  It's a long drive to Ohio just to come home with a DQ.

  Let your conscience be your guide pale


Last edited by Richard Ashmore on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by BE Mike on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:37 am

I bought a used S&W revolver that had had the hammer block removed. I immediately ordered a replacement. If I had used it in a match and had dropped the revolver, it discharged and injured someone, I would have been morally and legally responsible. I think the rule is a good one.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Fire Escape on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:42 am

.....and one time in band camp......

We can make up any number of possible 'it could happen' scenarios without proving or disproving whether certain features might 'save just one life' (to steal part of an overused line from the anti-gun groups).

Where within the realm of Bullseye Competition does a magazine operated trigger disconnect make anything safer?
Is 'Unload, Clear and Lock'  or 'Make your firearms safe' along with the insertion of a chamber flag not standard where everyone shoots? So you either have a clear, unloaded firearm or you have inserted a magazine (as instructed) and are ready to shoot.

If it is that important to the safety of everyone then it should be a required retrofit! After all, you can't race a twenty year old Indy Car without bringing it up to today's safety standards.

Bruce

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Axehandle on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:04 pm

Smile  Yup..  IMHO it makes for a "Unsafe" situation when I am forced to dry fire with a magazine in the gun.   Of course that is what you get when the inmates are in charge of the nut house.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Keyholed on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:58 pm

Richard Ashmore wrote:
Axehandle wrote:I'd have never thought the magazine disconnector would  be a part of the NRA rules.   Sound like a knee jeck reaction to all the firing pin stuff in 1911s these days.   I think the NRA should make it a rule that all guns go through a safety check and trigger weight in at registered matches like the military does at the military matches.    
lol!

  NRA Conventional Pistol Rule 3 has, for as long as I can recall, explicitly stated "All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."  Nothing new about it.

That would determine what your definition of a safety feature is. The manufacturer doesn't refer to it as a safety.

BE Mike wrote:I bought a used S&W revolver that had had the hammer block removed. I immediately ordered a replacement. If I had used it in a match and had dropped the revolver, it discharged and injured someone, I would have been morally and legally responsible. I think the rule is a good one.

The two are hardly the same. The magazine disconnect does nothing to prevent unintended discharges during operation or handling. If one accepts the supposition that the magazine disconnect is an important safety device, then the next logical step would be to ban Mk IIs and Mk Is, since they lack a magazine disconnect and are therefore unsafe. And the one after that would be to require magazine disconnects on all pistols.

Magazine disconnects are a security feature. They prevent unauthorized use by virtue of storing the magazines separate from both the pistol and the ammunition.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:46 pm

I also believe that the magazine disconnector is a liability rather than a safety feature and have pointed out elsewhere that it is not actually called a safety, but in the official capacity, I have been told that the NRA considers it a safety and it must be operational if the firearm was supplied with one when it left the factory.

About my Model 46:  An owner prior to me trimmed down the square corners of the slide so it now looks like a Model 41 and uses Model 41 barrels.  I have an original long barrel which now sports a rail and scope, and a short barrel that someone put a couple grooves in for an offset .22 scope mount.  It now has a scope using those types of rings, but the scope is offset to the right by quite a lot.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by BE Mike on Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:26 am

Keyholed wrote:
Richard Ashmore wrote:
Axehandle wrote:I'd have never thought the magazine disconnector would  be a part of the NRA rules.   Sound like a knee jeck reaction to all the firing pin stuff in 1911s these days.   I think the NRA should make it a rule that all guns go through a safety check and trigger weight in at registered matches like the military does at the military matches.    
lol!

  NRA Conventional Pistol Rule 3 has, for as long as I can recall, explicitly stated "All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly."  Nothing new about it.

That would determine what your definition of a safety feature is. The manufacturer doesn't refer to it as a safety.

BE Mike wrote:I bought a used S&W revolver that had had the hammer block removed. I immediately ordered a replacement. If I had used it in a match and had dropped the revolver, it discharged and injured someone, I would have been morally and legally responsible. I think the rule is a good one.

The two are hardly the same. The magazine disconnect does nothing to prevent unintended discharges during operation or handling. If one accepts the supposition that the magazine disconnect is an important safety device, then the next logical step would be to ban Mk IIs and Mk Is, since they lack a magazine disconnect and are therefore unsafe. And the one after that would be to require magazine disconnects on all pistols.

Magazine disconnects are a security feature. They prevent unauthorized use by virtue of storing the magazines separate from both the pistol and the ammunition.
I agree that they are different animals, except under the rules they are both considered safety devices. Once you open that can, then the S&W revolver trigger locks could be removed, etc. I'm not a fan of them either. I'm thinking that the NRA doesn't want to deal with the devices on every specific firearm, but that isn't an excuse. I still like the rule, but yes it could be modified. The way the rules read an old Colt Single Action or Ruger single action can be used, but if dropped, an AD could occur.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

Post by Keyholed on Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:19 pm

Yeah, I think they need to do a better job of defining what a safety is. Which is admittedly not easy, if only for the diversity of mechanisms and their relation to how the gun is being used. I would suggest that the way to do it would be to clean up the definition, and then add an exception list on a case-by-case basis, as they come up.

Overall, I don't think the NRA does the best job managing or promoting bullseye. They seem to be very heavily focused on action shooting sports, which way less people actually do, and which are way harder for new shooters to get into.

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Re: M41 Cleanup

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