What is this and how do I fix it?

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What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Ghillieman on 1/3/2017, 2:06 am

I've been dry firing on a blank wall and working hard to get a smooth pull that does not disturb the sights. Sometimes, right after the hammer falls, I see the front sight swirl. I have not been able to find the cause for the swirl.
What is this and how do I fix it?
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Jack H on 1/3/2017, 4:39 am

Put a little squeeze into the forearm just in front of the elbow to help firm the wrist.    Get the feel you are holding the gun with the arm.  And keep that firmness as part of followthrough.
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by DavidR on 1/3/2017, 8:41 am

Ah the dreaded whoopty whirl, yes i have those too from time to time and in my case it seems to come from relaxing my grip to soon. Seems to send the bullet to the five or if really bad off the paper. Not a good thing so hopefully somebof our shootersvwho have conqured this thing can help the rest of us out
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Wobbley on 1/3/2017, 10:16 am

It may be caused by relaxing your grip. Even slightly.

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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/3/2017, 10:28 am

Dry fire training! Break down each fundamental and perfect each one individually. I was getting a minor dot movement that with live fire would have never figured it out. Took minor grip change to fix. Dot is solid with no movement when hammer drops now. Dry fire dry fire dry fire. No shortcuts to proper shot execution.
Jon
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Oleg G on 1/3/2017, 2:54 pm

Jack,

You and others are pointing to grip issues. Trying to decipher your sentence: "Put a little squeeze into the forearm just in front of the elbow to help firm the wrist"
Looks like I can tighter both the forearm muscles and the wrist tendons when I apply slightly more pressure to the grip with the ring finger. Is this what you meant?

Thanks,
Oleg.
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Jack H on 1/3/2017, 3:59 pm

Oleg G wrote:Jack,

You and others are pointing to grip issues. Trying to decipher your sentence: "Put a little squeeze into the forearm just in front of the elbow to help firm the wrist"
Looks like I can tighter both the forearm muscles and the wrist tendons when I apply slightly more pressure to the grip with the ring finger. Is this what you meant?

Thanks,
Oleg.

Oleg

More pressure with the ring finger?  Yes.  As long as it is straight back
Look at your hand and see where the ring finger points as you close the hand.  It points straight into the mid point, top to bottom, of the back of the palm.  I believe this produces a stronger, wider base of support on the backstrap. 

Also to aid the straight forward grip on the backstrap, I believe pressing the thumb forward helps.  Not into the side, but a press more with the thumb heel. 

Both above seem to firm the wrist.  And you can add a conscious forearm firming in training.  The trick is to get this conscious stuff out of your head when you shoot.
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by weber1b on 1/3/2017, 4:13 pm

My bug-a-boo in learning this game has often been the swirl, or as I call it, the chili dip. I don't know so much about forearm tightening and all those nuances, but I find if I concentrate on a firm consistent grip when I pick up the gun and then move my concentration to making sure I only move one thing, my trigger finger, i get better shots and hence better scores. I refer to the bad process as shooting with my whole hand. When I get the finger moving consistently, steadily and smoothly, it just all comes together.

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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by CR10X on 1/3/2017, 5:21 pm

A couple of thing to look for, hope something will help.  The real key it to try different things and see what works best.  As our bodies change through shooting (and unfortunately age), sometimes a little adjustment in "style" might help. 

First, when holding the gun, do you hold your whole arm and shoulder muscles in extension like you were pushing the gun towards the target, in compression like you are pulling the whole arm into your shoulder joint (sorry, but that's the best I can some up with to explain the feeling) or just neutral like just holding the gun up through the wrist and elbow? 

If you are just generally using a neutral arm hold, focusing on wrist and elbow position only;  kinda like just holding the gun "up" but not stabilizing the arm and shoulder joints by extension or compression, give the other two ways to stabilize the arm it a try.  See how each feels and works.  

Secondly, be sure the grip is complete and stays the same until way after the hammer falls.  Sometimes the hand wants to "regrip" or we change pressure when the hammer falls because we as unconsciously relaxing the grip to get the trigger to finally break. 

Might try working on consistent grip pressure or trying the arm in full "extension" or "contraction" without looking at the sights, that is just breaking the trigger with your eyes closed to see how the grip, trigger and gun feels.  Sometimes "blind" dryfiring can tell you things your eyes can't see.

CR

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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by rreid on 1/3/2017, 6:33 pm

Maybe your overtravel stop needs to be adjusted?
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/3/2017, 7:37 pm

rreid wrote:Maybe your overtravel stop needs to be adjusted?

I shoot pistols with and without trigger over travel stops. I do not believe it to make a difference when squeezing trigger correctly.
I've found learning how to grip the pistol to being probably one of most important fundamentals contributing to good trigger squeeze. Wrong gripping affects everything. Sometimes its only a minor adj/diff in grip that makes the dot stay perfectly still when hammer drops.
Jon
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by gweber on 1/4/2017, 9:39 am

Mr. Eulette speaks alot of truth on learning how to grip the pistol correctly. 

I know this from personal experience. My dot on my 22 would be nice and smooth without much wobble. When I would switch to the 45 I would have a lot of movement. Once I found the proper grip for the 45 the dot looks identical to what I see with my 22. Nice, smooth and steady dot rather than what looks like a jackrabbit jumping around. Also scores have noticeably improved with the 45 when I got the "correct" grip. 

Garth

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Dot "swirl"

Post by Dipnet on 1/8/2017, 10:31 am

You maybe squeezing your grip too hard: the "dot swirl" could result from a reduction in muscle tension after trigger release.

The late Don Nygord recommend holding the grip about as hard as a gentleman would when shaking a lady's hand, i.e., with a light firmness. Early on I was advised to squeeze the grip until the oil came out and then let off a bit, but this is bad advice. That firm of a grip creates muscle tension that rapidly translates into sight wobble.

Practicing against a white wall with a red dot is great for both learning trigger squeeze to learn how to reduce the minimum arc of movement evident in the red dot. I hold my pistol as light as necessary to hold sight relatively still (my minimum arc of movement). The most important part of grip is pulling straight back with middle and wring fingers (the little finger provides light support). The grip is further stabilized by lightly pinching the thumb and base of trigger finger. You can see the results immediately when practicing against a white wall. 

See excellent information at "Nygord's Notes," http://www.australiancynic.com/NYGORD.htm#training  Hope this helps, dipnet
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Grip trauma

Post by Dipnet on 2/7/2017, 4:40 pm

Gripping and re-gripping, forgetting my grip, slighting altering an otherwise perfect grip, gripping too hard or lightly all are part of my bullseye life. I seem to master a grip, shoot well for awhile, forget what I was or am doing, only to rediscover correct grip after some sighing. Grip seems to be the difference for me between shooting well and not so well. I have finally developed the habit of re-gripping between each shot in slow fire and string in timed fire, with focus on holding pistol in alignment with forearm. I use a mouse pad as my pistol pad; at a downward angle, I push my hand into the grip while lightly pushing the bottom of the barrel into the pad (trigger finger pointing forward). It's a start. Cheers, dipnet
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Olde Pilot on 2/7/2017, 5:13 pm

Note that the "lady's handshake " grip is for the Free Pistol--not a big bore 1911 type pistol with a much more vertical grip..

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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/7/2017, 5:21 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
rreid wrote:Maybe your overtravel stop needs to be adjusted?

I shoot pistols with and without trigger over travel stops. I do not believe it to make a difference when squeezing trigger correctly.
I've found learning how to grip the pistol to being probably one of most important fundamentals contributing to good trigger squeeze. Wrong gripping affects everything. Sometimes its only a minor adj/diff in grip that makes the dot stay perfectly still when hammer drops.
Jon
So true.... why do I have a problem with this ?
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Re: What is this and how do I fix it?

Post by jwax on 2/8/2017, 10:14 am

When asked about this "yip" (golf term), an Olympic Gold Medal winner told me to "Ignore it!"
The more time/effort spent on diagnosing/correcting this effect, the more you'll continue to do it.
Ignore the negatives!

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