Barrel length in a .22

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Barrel length in a .22

Post by orpheoet on 2/1/2017, 9:02 pm

I noticed that Clark sells the optics dedicated barrel for the M41 in 5.5 and 6.5 length. With sight radius not being a factor what is the advantage to a longer barrel?
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by LenV on 2/1/2017, 9:19 pm

Hmm, weight, balance, accuracy (maybe). There must be some relationship to powder burn rate and most accurate barrel. All of which is kind of moot since both barrels would shoot little tiny groups. I like the balance of a longer barrel.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/1/2017, 11:48 pm

I cut a High Standard barrel down to 4" and love it. Very forgiving to shoot. When Lozoya won Nat'l s in 92 he was shooting 4" 41 barrel. Marines used to shoot long barreled 41's. Mike Curtis made his barrel. Euro guns commonly have 4" ish barrels. I don't remember who did the testing but 4" is supposed to be minimum length from what I've been told. Shorter barrels have less radial velocity to affect the bullets flight. 
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by orpheoet on 2/2/2017, 5:33 am

This is very interesting! I never would have thought a shorter barrel would be desirable. I personally have a 5" with my dot on it and a 7" for iron sights. The 7" seems to be the one that is more comfortable and groups better. HOWEVER the rifling is MUCH sharper on the 7". Hence the search for a new barrel....I guess I'm leaning toward the 6.5". As Len suggested the balance is different and I do favor the 7".
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by davekp on 2/2/2017, 9:42 am

Follow-through is more important with a longer barrel.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by gweber on 2/2/2017, 10:06 am

I think both the walther gsp/gsp expert and the pardini SPs have shorter barrels. I believe they use a gain twist rifling. The measure of just the length of the barrel minus the chamber I would guess like 3 - 3.5" max on those euro guns. I haven't measured either but just what I have noticed. Both guns are stupid accurate @ 50yds.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by davekp on 2/2/2017, 10:12 am

Pardini just announced a new Bullseye model with a longer barrel and built-in compensator.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by bdas on 2/2/2017, 3:32 pm

davekp wrote:Follow-through is more important with a longer barrel.

Why do you say that?  I would think it would be, well, maybe not less important exactly, but let's say easier to manage follow-through with a longer barrel, because of the extra weight.

Some rough back-of-a-napkin calculations suggest that with 22 standard velocity ammo (which is around 1050 or 1070 fps at the muzzle, but since the bullet is not quite to the muzzle yet and is still accelerating, I used 750 fps), traveling that extra 3 inches in a longer barrel will only take about 0.00033 seconds more than a shorter barrel (give or take a tenth of a millisecond).  So I think it's difficult to argue convincingly that it's noticeably more affected by your follow-through because the bullet is in the longer barrel for a longer amount of time.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/2/2017, 4:36 pm

A 5" gov't 45 is much easier to shoot consistently than a 6" longslide. In a shooters arc of movement the longer the barrel the less forgiving that pistol is to shoot. It's called radial velocity: barrel is moving in radial arc from shooters shoulder. That's why when a marksman shoots a bad shot it gets worse. First from poor trigger control then from the arc of barrel movement. It's not a straight shot out of the barrel, it has negative help from sideways movent of the pistol. When I tank a shot with my 5" it will be 1 scoring ring at 50yds. With the 6" it wll be double. When I'm doing my part I shoot them equally well. But I have to work harder to shoot the 6" well. That's why 99% of HM use a 5" pistol.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by desben on 2/2/2017, 4:45 pm

Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?!  Twisted Evil
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/2/2017, 5:17 pm

desben wrote:Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?!  Twisted Evil

If you look at the scores of most air pistol shooters you'll see they aren't even close to shooting groups that the pistols are capable of. 99% of AP shooters in the nation aren't breaking 550's. I bet if they had shorter barrels but kept the long sight radius, scores would go up.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/2/2017, 5:23 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
desben wrote:Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?!  Twisted Evil

If you look at the scores of most air pistol shooters you'll see they aren't even close to shooting groups that the pistols are capable of. 99% of AP shooters in the nation aren't breaking 550's. I bet if they had shorter barrels but kept the long sight radius, scores would go up.
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isn't the why Pilks guns will only sell a short compact guns to customers unless you prove you can shoot 555+ in a major event.
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This is Pilks response back in 2013'ish

Post by C.Perkins on 2/2/2017, 6:37 pm

Well I am back from Camp Perry’s Pistol phase where once again I have had numerous conversations and observations that confirm the rightness of my decision on this matter. Here are three random thoughts, and then I will get to the heart of the matter. . 

First, I had wondered when or if this discussion would ever show up on Target Talk. 

Second, isn’t it so true of human nature, that people would actually rather get on the internet and complain, rather than phone or email the individual that they have a perceived problem with. All the original poster* had to do was contact us and his problem would have been solved. We tell people all the time that if they truly want a long gun despite our advice, that they can buy the long one from Champions Choice, who is our largest legitimate retailer. Yes I know I am not making as much money on the sale, but I am doing what I believe is best for the sport. Of course, there are grey market dealers as well, most notably in Texas. *Even more curious is this individual lives an hour’s drive away from our store, and chooses to come on the internet and complain, rather driving up and trying out various pistols and grips to better understand the issue. We have people travel as much as 12 hours to come here and get first hand exposure to their options. 


Third, there seems to be some posting who are not aware of the different options we do offer to buy a long gun. 

And now, onto the why of the story. 

Why did I implement this policy? I have been in this business some 17 years now. I have attended numerous junior championships, Numerous adults championships at US and international levels, and ran or attended events at cross disciplines such Bullseye or Practical Pistol. This particular concept has been three years on the drawing board with discussions of it with various, REAL coaches over that time ( and yes, discussed with Steyr for those who have questioned it). 

My primary reason for implementing it is that I am sick and tired of seeing some new individual come into the sport that I love, take up hours of our valuable time, buy all the necessary gear, and six months or a year later, see that same individual selling all their gear, because they are lousy at it. Many of those new comers, came from a shooting background already, most of them are Bullseye competitors. And numerous discussions over the years point to the longer barrel being the culprit. After much thought and discussion with knowledgeable individuals, I decided it was worth a try. 

Someone mentioned Don Nygord’s World Championship win. That is a very solid part of my conclusion. Don was a very experienced shooter at the time. Far better than most of us ever will be. Yet he chose to switch from the long barrel Model 65 to a short version, and become the world champion with the short barreled Mark II. That should cause a lot of you naysayers to sit back and think. 

The original poster mentioned he wanted to give this pistol to his grandson? WHY ON EARTH would anyone want to give someone the wrong equipment? Much less some you cared about like a grandchild? I would want to get them the best equipment for their sport. 

Strangely enough, I don’t think anyone has mentioned my back up offer. I am putting my money where my beliefs are. If you think you can prove me wrong, and can do it, then I am willing to GIVE YOU $2400 worth of pistol. That is money straight out of my pocket and into yours if I am wrong. Like any new concept, there will be some tweaking of it as time goes by. I have already been pushed to drop the orginal posted limit from 560 to 555. If someone has a more credible way to assess skill, then I am willing to listen. 

Am I loosing some sales and thus some money along the way? Yes I am sure I am, but as I have said, I send them to Champions Choice where they can get what they want, and I still make a few dollars. But I would rather loose a few dollars on a few sales and see the sport grow overall with people starting out with the best options for their needs. I want my customers to stay in the sport and excel, to the best of their abilities. That’s what’s important for me.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by orpheoet on 2/3/2017, 4:50 am

Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/3/2017, 5:18 am

orpheoet wrote:Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....
That barrel might be best for you
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Sa-tevp on 2/3/2017, 7:01 am

orpheoet wrote:Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....

I have a 6.5 and my friend has a 5.5. My 6.5 gives me scores like my Hammerli X-esse with CCI SV and we once tested my friend's 5.5 from a Ransom Rest clamped to a heavy wooden rifle bench. 20 shots CCI SV where all inside the X ring at 50 yards (we were looking for worst performance).
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Slartybartfast on 2/3/2017, 9:12 am

Now, I don't know how much I really care to argue the gut reaction/justification that shorter barrels are "more forgiving" and you have to prove yourself some kind of expert to be worthy of shooting long barrels.

But where does the line get drawn in such logic? If a shorter barrel is more forgiving why don't the best of the best shoot 3" barrels with front sight extensions?

Why are all "target" firearms longer 5" or 5.25" versions of the standard pistol?

If you work your way up to the "I am worthy" level with a short barrel, how awful is the transition going to be with a few years of built in bad habits with the shorter barrel?
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/3/2017, 10:05 am

Slartybartfast wrote:Now, I don't know how much I really care to argue the gut reaction/justification that shorter barrels are "more forgiving" and you have to prove yourself some kind of expert to be worthy of shooting long barrels.

But where does the line get drawn in such logic? If a shorter barrel is more forgiving why don't the best of the best shoot 3" barrels with front sight extensions?

Why are all "target" firearms longer 5" or 5.25" versions of the standard pistol?

If you work your way up to the "I am worthy" level with a short barrel, how awful is the transition going to be with a few years of built in bad habits with the shorter barrel?

If you give a marksman a Ruger MKII with a good trigger job or a Hammerli 208 he/she will shoot the same scores. Ability/skill of shooter will govern over pistol. It's a proven fact that majority of HM shoot 5" barreled 45's. They could use a longslide but choose not to. Why? Obviously they're HM and would shoot one well, but at that level they know what will give them the best repeatable performance. I see many experts shoot an occasional good SF target, but the norm for the typical expert is 1 decent SF and 2 mediocre SF for an aggregate. It's mostly because of their trigger finger not their pistols. So do I think an expert would do better with different pistols? No I don't think so. Would a shorter barrel help? No I don't think so. International pistol shooting is much more difficult to shoot well in comparison to shooting BE. Smaller scoring rings and iron sights. It will show your flaws and eat you up quickly. 60 shot course of fire vs. 1800 or 2700. In a 2700 you can recover from a few bad shots and still avg high. In international a few bad shots and you're done! So barrel length in my opinion doesn't matter much at short line. 50 is another story. But realistically look at how BE shooters make classification. Its primarily based on short line. 2/3 of the match is short line. You can shoot mediocre long line and good short line and make expert. Its not until Master that SF makes much difference. But really what makes or breaks a shooter is there ability to apply fundamentals. I never blame gun/equipment for scores, its 99% shooter. So unfortunately not enough shooters look in the mirror in regards to their BE scores and deal with the real problem. You either have an understanding of the fundamentals and can apply them or you don't! It's that simple. So in regards to your transition statement, if you shoot low scores in BE what makes you think you can shoot good scores in international (FP & AP) with a longer barreled pistol? You'd be lying to yourself! I've been at this game for many many years and I don't believe in fluff. I base it on experience and observation. I form my opinions from that. So shoot what ya got! As far ss being worthy, it was never about self worth. You can reinvent the wheel or learn from others experience. I recommend learning from others.......
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/3/2017, 10:08 am

Barrel length is a by product of sight radius. So called 'match' pistols have iron sights so the barrel/slide has to lengthen for the addutional sight distance.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by bdas on 2/3/2017, 2:02 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:A 5" gov't 45 is much easier to shoot consistently than a 6" longslide. In a shooters arc of movement the longer the barrel the less forgiving that pistol is to shoot. It's called radial velocity: barrel is moving in radial arc from shooters shoulder. That's why when a marksman shoots a bad shot it gets worse. First from poor trigger control then from the arc of barrel movement. It's not a straight shot out of the barrel, it has negative help from sideways movent of the pistol. When I tank a shot with my 5" it will be 1 scoring ring at 50yds. With the 6" it wll be double. When I'm doing my part I shoot them equally well. But I have to work harder to shoot the 6" well. That's why 99% of HM use a 5" pistol.
Jon

For what it's worth, my personal experience is that I found a 22 with a 7.25" barrel was actually easier for me to hold steady (and score well with) than a similar one with a 5.5" barrel.  I attributed it to the additional weight, but I could be mistaken about that.  Obviously, there's a limit to additional weight, whereby the extra weight, and especially more weight further from the hand/wrist as you'd get with a longer barrel, will make it harder to hold steady.  And I think there's general agreement that a very lightweight gun is not an advantage, either.  So the ideal weight is a compromise somewhere in the middle, and probably varies quite a bit from individual to individual.

But, if you're saying that the main reason why a 6" barrel is more challenging to shoot than a 5" barrel is because the muzzle is 1" further from the shoulder joint... wouldn't that suggest that people with shorter arms would have a significant advantage in bullseye shooting?  The difference in arm length between someone who's tall and someone who's short could exceed 6" from shoulder to muzzle; far more than the 1" difference in barrel lengths discussed above.  

Is there really an advantage in precision pistol to being short (or at least having short arms)?  Do high masters tend to be shorter than average?  (I'm not being facetious here... I really don't know the answer.  I'm just thinking about the implications of what Jon is saying.)

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/3/2017, 3:54 pm

You know I was just being basic in my analysis. Many factors involved in executing a good shot and a bad shot. A longer pistol barrel on a gun with more recoil is affected more by grip pressure and mechanical breakdown of wrist. Now add trigger squeeze to that. So the movement of the pistol can be attributed to the arc from shoulder, wrist alignment, trigger squeeze both good and bad and poor stance (body trying to go neutral while you are forcing misalignment with target.
Bit in a nutshell, a good shooter can feel the difference between 5" and 6" 1911 45 barrel lengths when shooting. My 208S is less forgiving than my SP on the short line. A shot that feels like a 9 with the 208 and is a 9  is typically a scratch 10 with the SP. Is it the barrel length? I don't know, but the SP is very forgiving to shoot in comparison.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Jack H on 2/3/2017, 4:02 pm

Back when my shoulders were young and in shape, and I was also on the college tennis team, I did shoot a lot of High Standards in training to later move on to free pistol.  I shot all barrel lengths even the 8" space barrel.  I saw no SF difference in results from any length.  My opinion is if your muscles and training are up to the task of holding the weight and balance of the long or heavy barrel, and your fundamentals are sound, then do it and take advantage of the long sight radius.  My shoulder is not up to this any more.
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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Froneck on 2/3/2017, 4:31 pm

As Adam was advancing in his shooting skills I made sure that he had in his hands the best that would work in his hands. Naturally having a complete machine shop I can modify or alter any gun and as in one case I made the entire gun. Being his first match at Perry was when he was 10 years old I had to adjust the guns as he got older. What I found was that fit in the hand, trigger pull and balance was the best combination. Barrel length didn't mater as long as the gun balanced as the shooter desired. Naturally in my case I could modify the balance to allow Adam to test the gun and I adjust to what Adam felt preformed best for him!
 Yes most European made International pistols have short barrels but most of the international events are 25m. The only long line International Pistol event is Free Pistol yet none that I know of have short barrels, usually longer barrels. Yet the one common item is weights that the shooter can use to adjust the gun to his desire. Most of the guns available barrel length is not that easy to make shorter with exception of a few like the Ruger and High Standard.

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

Post by Wobbley on 2/3/2017, 7:43 pm

A lot of this controversy, to me, is indicative of poor wrist control.  Years ago we used to call it locking your wrist, but you really can't do that.  Mechanically a wrist is very much like a universal joint on a driveshaft. When we "locked" our wrist what we actually did was apply tension to all the tendons that control wrist movement.  By doing that the hand and arm became relatively rigid.  A firm grip helps establish this tension because the finger tendons can help.

When we shoot the body moves and in a higher class shooter they compensate for the swaying of the body by micro adjusting the arm to keep the sights aligned with the eye and the aiming point.  (This has been proven to be the case with rifle shooters shooting standing.). The adjustment should be made at the shoulder not the wrist.  But a lot of shooters start relaxing the wrist to adjust and the wobble starts to increase.  With a long muzzle heavy gun, this amplifies the wobble.  

I didn't get the handle Wobbley for no reason....

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Re: Barrel length in a .22

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