2017 NRA Rule Change?

Yesterday, I read a match program for an upcoming Precision Pistol Match and it was stated in the program (paraphrased) that beginning in 2017 NRA has issued a rule change that Distinguished Revolver Matches are no longer restricted to regionals or state championships and can be stand alone matches. Further, they eliminated the rule that a competitor is not required to fire in the full 2700 to have his/her score validated toward DR Leg Points.
I searched the NRA's on-line Rule Book and could not verify this information. Could a match director or knowledgeable competitor verify these rule changes and cite the section of the NRA Rule Book where they can be found?
The match program for our May Regional is based on the 2016 DR rules, but if they have changed for 2017, we will need to issue an addendum to our program consistent with any new rules regarding DR Matches.

The NRA still has the 2016 Rule Book on the competitions section of their website.  I have not heard of any changes.  You can call Damien at the NRA to get the answer.  His direct number is (703) 267-1478.

cdrt wrote:The NRA still has the 2016 Rule Book on the competitions section of their website.  I have not heard of any changes.  You can call Damien at the NRA to get the answer.  His direct number is (703) 267-1478.

Thanks for the information. I'll call Damien at the NRA. If there has been rule changes regarding DR, I'll post.

Someone is probably confusing the changes for the CMP / EIC Distinguished Pistol rules with the NRA Distinguished Revolver rules.

CR

CR10X wrote:Someone is probably confusing the changes for the CMP / EIC Distinguished Pistol rules with the NRA Distinguished Revolver rules.

CR

I've got an inquiry in to the NRA Director of Tournament Operations, which should end the speculation regarding these questions. I'll post the reply.

NRA [Precision] Pistol Rule 23 covers the Distinguished Revolver Program.  Rule 23.1 was amended by the Pistol Committee in 2015 and approved by the NRA Board of Directors in Jan 2016. Individuals are no longer required to shoot any portion of a NRA State or Regional Championship match to be eligible to compete in the Distinguished Revolver Match.   The Distinguished Revolver match may still only be held at a NRA State or Regional level match [and National Championship].  The NRA Director of Competitions agreed to develop a stand alone NRA registration fee for the Distinguished Revolver match for individuals who are not competing in other NRA matches (900/1800/2700) for State and Regional Championships.  Furthermore, to attract already Distinguished Revolver shooters to continue to participate in DR matches, the Dir of Competitions agreed to develop an award for already Distinguished Revolver shooters who participate in DR matches and score above the cut for a "leg".  NRA is still working on the registration fee and the award.

The NRA Board of Directors has approved Pistol Committee rule changes for 2017.  NRA is working to update the online rule books and will post the changes and updated rules as soon as possible.  2016 rule changes and rules are posted at: http://rulebooks.nra.org/


Hope the above helps,


Ted


Ted Carter
NRA Pistol Committee member

A gold, silver, and bronze medal for the top 3 competitors in the Distinguished Revolver match would keep a lot of shooters interested. Or maybe even just a really nice looking ornate gold medal to the top shooter.

Also, making the Distinguished Revolver Badge gold in color would be a nice touch. Gold anodized would be sufficient. I got my Distinguished Revolver Badge in last month and my wife said "Isn't that supposed to be gold like your other ones?". It looks like a bronze CMP first leg badge, very plain, very dull, and absolutely bronze in color.

ted.carter.568 wrote:NRA [Precision] Pistol Rule 23 covers the Distinguished Revolver Program.  Rule 23.1 was amended by the Pistol Committee in 2015 and approved by the NRA Board of Directors in Jan 2016. Individuals are no longer required to shoot any portion of a NRA State or Regional Championship match to be eligible to compete in the Distinguished Revolver Match.   The Distinguished Revolver match may still only be held at a NRA State or Regional level match [and National Championship].  The NRA Director of Competitions agreed to develop a stand alone NRA registration fee for the Distinguished Revolver match for individuals who are not competing in other NRA matches (900/1800/2700) for State and Regional Championships.  Furthermore, to attract already Distinguished Revolver shooters to continue to participate in DR matches, the Dir of Competitions agreed to develop an award for already Distinguished Revolver shooters who participate in DR matches and score above the cut for a "leg".  NRA is still working on the registration fee and the award.

The NRA Board of Directors has approved Pistol Committee rule changes for 2017.  NRA is working to update the online rule books and will post the changes and updated rules as soon as possible.  2016 rule changes and rules are posted at: http://rulebooks.nra.org/

Hope the above helps,
Ted
Ted Carter
NRA Pistol Committee member

The rule change is not there yet.  Hopefully it will come out soon, with the fee if you want to just shoot the DR.

While we're on the subject of DR, whatever happened to the hat pins?

ted.carter.568 wrote:NRA [Precision] Pistol Rule 23 covers the Distinguished Revolver Program.  Rule 23.1 was amended by the Pistol Committee in 2015 and approved by the NRA Board of Directors in Jan 2016. Individuals are no longer required to shoot any portion of a NRA State or Regional Championship match to be eligible to compete in the Distinguished Revolver Match.   The Distinguished Revolver match may still only be held at a NRA State or Regional level match [and National Championship].  The NRA Director of Competitions agreed to develop a stand alone NRA registration fee for the Distinguished Revolver match for individuals who are not competing in other NRA matches (900/1800/2700) for State and Regional Championships.  Furthermore, to attract already Distinguished Revolver shooters to continue to participate in DR matches, the Dir of Competitions agreed to develop an award for already Distinguished Revolver shooters who participate in DR matches and score above the cut for a "leg".  NRA is still working on the registration fee and the award.

The NRA Board of Directors has approved Pistol Committee rule changes for 2017.  NRA is working to update the online rule books and will post the changes and updated rules as soon as possible.  2016 rule changes and rules are posted at: http://rulebooks.nra.org/


Hope the above helps,


Ted


Ted Carter
NRA Pistol Committee member

Thanks Ted, your reply was insightful. However, it appears to this competitor that the NRA has turned 180 by eliminating the requirement of firing in the 2700 to be eligible to enter the DR Match. As I was told by NRA Competition's that requiring competitors to fire in a 2700 at a regional or state championship was precipitated by competitors, particularly along the East Coast, traveling from a nearby state to nearby states each weekend entering only the DR matches. Further, some competitors using this rule to their advantage were achieving their distinguished badge in one shooting season, while competitors living in other regions of the country without such numerous opportunities were at a distinct disadvantage. So, apparently we are back to square 1. Those of us who do not live in a region that affords easy access to regionals and state championships potentially every weekend must now suffer the fate of this 180 rule change. Correct?

My apologies for replying to several of you in one message.

(1) Rule Change:  The rule change of 23.1 from the 2015 rule book is reflected in 2016's rule book which is posted online.  Although NRA has not established a fee for the stand alone DR Match, I'm using the NRA Regional indiv fee until the NRA establishes a fee.

(2) Hat Pins:  The NRA Pistol Committee and the NRA Dir of Competitions agreed to provide an award to already distinguished DR shooters who shoot above the leg cut score.  NRA was to design the "pin".  That is still in work.

(3)  DR match linked with Regional or State Champ:  The Pistol Committee and NRA staff, after discussion, agreed to keep the DR matched linked to a NRA Regional or State Championship, but delink it from the requirement to compete in any portion of the NRA match.  To the best of my knowledge there were no compelling competitor arguments to delink the DR match from State or Regional matches.  The majority of the comments argued for the ability to shoot a DR match without having to shoot any portion of the NRA match.  As an aside, my wife and I run a Regional and a State match in Jacksonville, FL  every year, giving shooters 2 opportunities per year in this area to shoot a DR match.  If you would like to recommend a rule change eliminating the requirement to a DR match to be linked with a State or Regional NRA match, please send your recommendation with rationale to pistol@nrahq.org.    

Ted

Ted Carter

ted.carter.568 wrote:My apologies for replying to several of you in one message.

(1) Rule Change:  The rule change of 23.1 from the 2015 rule book is reflected in 2016's rule book which is posted online.  Although NRA has not established a fee for the stand alone DR Match, I'm using the NRA Regional indiv fee until the NRA establishes a fee.

(2) Hat Pins:  The NRA Pistol Committee and the NRA Dir of Competitions agreed to provide an award to already distinguished DR shooters who shoot above the leg cut score.  NRA was to design the "pin".  That is still in work.

(3)  DR match linked with Regional or State Champ:  The Pistol Committee and NRA staff, after discussion, agreed to keep the DR matched linked to a NRA Regional or State Championship, but delink it from the requirement to compete in any portion of the NRA match.  To the best of my knowledge there were no compelling competitor arguments to delink the DR match from State or Regional matches.  The majority of the comments argued for the ability to shoot a DR match without having to shoot any portion of the NRA match.  As an aside, my wife and I run a Regional and a State match in Jacksonville, FL  every year, giving shooters 2 opportunities per year in this area to shoot a DR match.  If you would like to recommend a rule change eliminating the requirement to a DR match to be linked with a State or Regional NRA match, please send your recommendation with rationale to pistol@nrahq.org.    

Ted

Ted Carter

Ted: Thank you for your new post and I understand that you were addressing several questions in one post. Although the rule changes are now "cut & dried," I am surprised that the NRA Pistol Committee and NRA Competitions decided to eliminate the rule of firing in a 2700 to be eligible for a competitor's DR score to count towards a distinguished badge. However, I see from your post that rule was exchanged for a "fee." Our club also sponsors an annual regional and state championship and we charge a fee to enter the DR match, but the NRA's did not charge a fee for a DR at regional & state championship, as it was included in the NRA fee of $8/competitor for a regional. The DR Match generated a small revenue stream for us. With the dramatic and dwindling number of Precision Pistol shooters over the past three decades (down 1/2 at Perry) and less venues offering Precision Pistol sanctioned matches, now this small revenue stream is going to the NRA instead of contributing to keeping regional & state championships solvent and ongoing. It appears to this match director that NRA in its effort to increase their revenue stream have raised the fees that match sponsors must remit to NRA for a regional, while clawing back what for decades NRA furnished, which were regional medals for all five classes and team medals. The burden has been shifted to match sponsors to bear the cost of buying the medals or providing cash prizes, which has the consequence of match sponsors  having to raise entry fees to cover their cost of ever an shrinking income. I raised the question of raising the regional fee and eliminating providing the medals with Denny and his response was a terse, ..."you can't buy a lot of medals with an $8.00 fee..." My response was, correct Denny, but when you have, say 50 competitors, you can buy several medals with $400 and have money left over. This allows NRA Competitions to point to local clubs as the party responsible for increased entry fees. Careful NRA Competitions and Pistol Committee, the numbers (competitors) aren't there and to keep raising or adding fees may kill the source of the golden eggs---sponsoring clubs/ranges. Although I have disagreements with the Pistol Committee and NRA Competitions, as an NRA Life Member, I support the organization's efforts. Maybe it's similar to the quote by Tom Cruise in the movie that he acted as a wildly successful sports agent when he famously said: "... it's all about the money, everything else is just conversation."

Brassmaster:  I absolutely understand your concern.  As a Bullseye shooter for more than just a few years, I've seen the quality and quantity of NRA provided awards decline.  The former Dir of Competitions was not shy in advising the Pistol Committee about not getting directly involved in how the funding of Competitions is handled.  And he was right, that's not a responsibility of the Committee.  The Committee focused on one specific issue of a match.  How do we keep shooters coming back to the DR match once they are distinguished.  DR pins and medals are furnished at no cost to the competitor by NRA Competitions.  All an individual had to do was register to shoot in all or some of the NRA State or Regional match and he/she was eligible to shoot the DR.  As more shooters became distinguished, the numbers participating in the DR matches declined.  In an unofficial pole, many already distinguished DR shooters said there was no "NRA incentive" to continue shooting the DR matches.  Ammo costs and the time to shoot the match outweighed the gratification of additional "trigger time" and short lived bragging rights at the match for doing well.  It was suggested that some type of "hat bling" be awarded to a distinguished DR shooter for shooting above the leg cut.  However the NRA Dir of Competitions was not able to fund the awards.  The Pistol Committee suggested a nominal entry fee to help defray to cost of the DR program, including an award "pin" developed by NRA.  At the same time, responding to requests from competitors to delink the DR match from the requirement to participate in the NRA match(es) at a State and Regional match, the Pistol Committee agreed, the NRA Board approved and the rule was changed for 2016.  Regrettably it's been over a year and no award or entry fee has been established.  I, as a match dir. have delinked the requirement to participate in the NRA matches at my Regional and State matches and I am, for the time being, charging the individual the same NRA fee as charged to individuals competing in any/all of the NRA matches...plus a small admin fee.  I will bring this overdue action up concerning DR match registration fees and DR awards to whomever is named the new Dir of Competitions.  Bottom line: The DR match was a great idea by NRA, and the Pistol Committee is trying to get more folks to participate.

Ted,
I just need to clarify something in your last post; what you are charging is the $5.50 per shooter that the NRA charges for a Registered match, plus a small admin fee, if they only shoot the DR, right?  I just need some guideline, since I have a state match coming up and someone may show up to just shoot the DR. Right now, I just charge a $1 for the DR, since I wrote the match program when they had to shoot the 2700 to shoot the DR.

If the NRA wants more competitors shooting the DR match, then they need to supply more of the same incentive that drew competitors in the first place. Hat pins above a cut score and a gold medal for the match winner would do well.

Ghillieman wrote:If the NRA wants more competitors shooting the DR match, then they need to supply more of the same incentive that drew competitors in the first place. Hat pins above a cut score and a gold medal for the match winner would do well.

That would interest me enough to try for a hat pin.  Don

cdrt wrote:Ted,
I just need to clarify something in your last post; what you are charging is the $5.50 per shooter that the NRA charges for a Registered match, plus a small admin fee, if they only shoot the DR, right?  I just need some guideline, since I have a state match coming up and someone may show up to just shoot the DR. Right now, I just charge a $1 for the DR, since I wrote the match program when they had to shoot the 2700 to shoot the DR.

In our State and Regional match, I have currently a two tier DR fee.  For those individuals shooting the DR in conjunction with any/all of the NRA matches the fee is $5.00 per shooter.  For those individuals shooting the DR match, and not shooting any NRA match, the fee is $10.00, which covers their NRA registration fee.  In the absence of any NRA guidance, I want to ensure the NRA registration fee for the individual(s) not shooting the NRA match is paid so there is no question by NRA on recording his/her DR score.

Ted

ted.carter.568 wrote:

cdrt wrote:Ted,
I just need to clarify something in your last post; what you are charging is the $5.50 per shooter that the NRA charges for a Registered match, plus a small admin fee, if they only shoot the DR, right?  I just need some guideline, since I have a state match coming up and someone may show up to just shoot the DR. Right now, I just charge a $1 for the DR, since I wrote the match program when they had to shoot the 2700 to shoot the DR.

In our State and Regional match, I have currently a two tier DR fee.  For those individuals shooting the DR in conjunction with any/all of the NRA matches the fee is $5.00 per shooter.  For those individuals shooting the DR match, and not shooting any NRA match, the fee is $10.00, which covers their NRA registration fee.  In the absence of any NRA guidance, I want to ensure the NRA registration fee for the individual(s) not shooting the NRA match is paid so there is no question by NRA on recording his/her DR score.

Ted

Thanks for the reply; what you said is pretty much what I figured.  So far, no one has inquired about just shooting the DR, but you never know.  I will pass this along to the other Pistol Director for next year's state match.

ted.carter.568 wrote:Brassmaster:  I absolutely understand your concern.  As a Bullseye shooter for more than just a few years, I've seen the quality and quantity of NRA provided awards decline.  The former Dir of Competitions was not shy in advising the Pistol Committee about not getting directly involved in how the funding of Competitions is handled.  And he was right, that's not a responsibility of the Committee.  The Committee focused on one specific issue of a match.  How do we keep shooters coming back to the DR match once they are distinguished.  DR pins and medals are furnished at no cost to the competitor by NRA Competitions.  All an individual had to do was register to shoot in all or some of the NRA State or Regional match and he/she was eligible to shoot the DR.  As more shooters became distinguished, the numbers participating in the DR matches declined.  In an unofficial pole, many already distinguished DR shooters said there was no "NRA incentive" to continue shooting the DR matches.  Ammo costs and the time to shoot the match outweighed the gratification of additional "trigger time" and short lived bragging rights at the match for doing well.  It was suggested that some type of "hat bling" be awarded to a distinguished DR shooter for shooting above the leg cut.  However the NRA Dir of Competitions was not able to fund the awards.  The Pistol Committee suggested a nominal entry fee to help defray to cost of the DR program, including an award "pin" developed by NRA.  At the same time, responding to requests from competitors to delink the DR match from the requirement to participate in the NRA match(es) at a State and Regional match, the Pistol Committee agreed, the NRA Board approved and the rule was changed for 2016.  Regrettably it's been over a year and no award or entry fee has been established.  I, as a match dir. have delinked the requirement to participate in the NRA matches at my Regional and State matches and I am, for the time being, charging the individual the same NRA fee as charged to individuals competing in any/all of the NRA matches...plus a small admin fee.  I will bring this overdue action up concerning DR match registration fees and DR awards to whomever is named the new Dir of Competitions.  Bottom line: The DR match was a great idea by NRA, and the Pistol Committee is trying to get more folks to participate.

Ted, et al: The speculation is apparently over regarding what is and what isn't rule changes regarding 2017 DR Matches & going forward. As I stated in one of my previous posts, I had contacted NRA Competitions requesting rule change clarification. I have received that reply and it appears below verbatim:




"I am writing in regards to your email from last week to Shelly Kramer. The DR Match is now to be held just like at Camp Perry.  The requirement for the match to be held alongside states and regionals is still there, but competitors can come just to compete in the DR Match.  The requirement for the competitor to shoot in both the championship and the side match was removed.  There is now a separate fee of $5 per competitor to be sent to the NRA along with the DR scores.  This may cause a change in your program.  You can submit any updated paperwork along with the scores and fees.  The scoring of the DR Match itself has not changed at all.  The competition requirement was changed and a competitor fee was added.  If you have any other questions or concerns in this regard, please feel free to email me.  I will answer as soon as I can."  

Elizabeth M. Martin

Pistol Program Specialist
Competitive Shooting Division



Although the new rules are now officially enshrined and apparently retroactive to regional 's approved before the official edict came into print, I still respectively disagree because I revert back to my original position which is that competitors that live along the East Coast or in close proximity to it, one can locate a regional or state championship & DR match almost on any given weekend enjoy a distinct advantage over those competitors that do not live along the East Coast and travel to that region represents significant travel time, lodging expenses or just becomes geographically impractical. The adoption of the variance of entering just a DR Match by merely paying a fee to NRA has Tom Cruise's famous line still ringing in my ears: "...it's all about the money, everything else is just conversation." So, as match directors were are forced to implement this new rule whether we agree or not, which could be interpreted as ransoming a rule for a fee. Further, according to a statement in one of your posts, NRA Pistol Competitions cannot even afford to buy hat pins for those shooting above the Leg Cut line. This after raising the regional fee from $5.50 to $8/competitor and eliminating 17 medals that they had provided to regionals for years, with local match sponsors picking up the tab for the awards deficit. Let's not reward one geographic area with an advantage while depriving another. To level the playing field it is my suggestion that NRA adopt a rule that mirrors the CMP Rule regarding Service Pistol and Rimfire Leg Matches that every DR competitor is limited to five matches per calendar year, one which must be at Camp Perry. Additionally, as match directors typically do, they offer a price break to competitors that enter more of the tournament's matches. This practice could be reversed to encourage competitors to enter the full 2700 or two or three individual stages by charging those competitors that want to enter just the DR match. Example: firing the full 2700 the DR fee is $10 ($5 for NRA & $5 for the sponsoring organization) or not entering the 2700 or at least two stages of the 2700 the DR fee is $15. As I read the reply from Ms. Martin, I see nothing preventing us as match directors from doing this. NRA Competitions, The Pistol Program and non-match directors sitting on the Pistol Committee may need to understand that fees, (NRA) range equipment costs, supply costs such as targets, portable toilet rentals, liability insurance premiums, range maintenance costs, award costs, etc. have risen exponentially, while entry fees have remained stagnant and a lot of clubs and organizations that sponsor local matches are operating on razor -thin margins. As a suggestion, if NRA wants/requires/needs more income then, "man-up" and set competitor's entry fees accordingly and not put the onus on local clubs. NRA sanctioned local matches have been and remain the backbone of Precision Pistol/ Bullseye Competition. Do not completely favor the individual competitors at the expense of your equally important asset---local match sponsors.

Brassmaster:  OK, so here's the important response, up front.  I will take your suggested rule change of up to 5 DR's max per year, with one at the Natl Pistol champs...along with match sponsors conducting DR's at any approved NRA Match, and remove the limitation from just the State and Regional matches.  If you'd like to write specific rule change verbiage, you are welcome to draft and PM me and/or send it to pistol@nrahq.org.  Match sponsors are always allowed to add reasonable additional fees to cover admin and facility costs.  Finally, as for the DR fee for 2017.  I have submitted a recommendation to NRA to waive DR fees for 2017 and begin to develop a design for a pin.  Both addl DR fee and pin to be implemented in 2018.

Ted

ted.carter.568 wrote:Brassmaster:  OK, so here's the important response, up front.  I will take your suggested rule change of up to 5 DR's max per year, with one at the Natl Pistol champs...along with match sponsors conducting DR's at any approved NRA Match, and remove the limitation from just the State and Regional matches.  If you'd like to write specific rule change verbiage, you are welcome to draft and PM me and/or send it to pistol@nrahq.org.  Match sponsors are always allowed to add reasonable additional fees to cover admin and facility costs.  Finally, as for the DR fee for 2017.  I have submitted a recommendation to NRA to waive DR fees for 2017 and begin to develop a design for a pin.  Both addl DR fee and pin to be implemented in 2018.

Ted

Thanks for another insightful response Ted. Either I misstated or was misunderstood, I did not advocate removing the limitation of DRs being sanctioned only at regionals, state championships and Camp Perry or removing the requirement of firing in the 900, 1800 or 2700 of those events. However, it is now a moot point because NRA Competitions has opened DR matches to be stand-alone and not require competitors to fire in the 900, 1800 or 2700 of a state, regional or Perry. However, the limitation of five (5) DR matches per calendar year could be reduced to three or four, with one required at Perry.

From the beginning, we have charged $10 for DR matches which helped make up the deficit from NRA eliminating 17 medals and raising the fee for regionals from $5.50 to $8.00 per competitor charged to the match sponsor. I'll ruminate and cogitate further on this subject and greatly appreciate your offer to PM you with specific recommendations and comments.

NRA has supplied a DR hat pin and medal to every individual that became Distinguished with the revolver from the beginning of DR until 2012. In 2012 the NRA quit giving the DR hat pin to new DR recipients due to lack of funds. What is the chance of reinstating the DR hat pin award when someone becomes Distinguished with the revolver?

mark b wrote:NRA has supplied a DR hat pin and medal to every individual that became Distinguished with the revolver from the beginning of DR until 2012. In 2012 the NRA quit giving the DR hat pin to new DR recipients due to lack of funds. What is the chance of reinstating the DR hat pin award when someone becomes Distinguished with the revolver?

Thanks for updating me.  I was not aware NRA stopped giving away the DR hat pins in 2012.  This action was never relayed to the NRA Pistol Committee, that I am a member of.  Being Distinguished Revolver (#136), I wear the hat pin with pride, as I know other DR recipients do.  I'll check with NRA and see if funding can be found to restore the DR hat pin, both going forward and retroactive.  Thanks for posting.

Ted Carter

I became Distinguished (#213) with the revolver last year at Camp Perry and I was disappointed when the NRA packet arrived with the DR letter and Medal but no hat pin.
Damien Orsinger at NRA gave me the info about the hat pins and told me the pins may become available for me to purchase in early 2017 but nothing has developed.
Thanks Ted for any help you may give us.