Service Pistol Sight Modifications

First topic message reminder :

Ok question for the masses. Can Bo-mar mini-rib rear sight be used for service pistol? It's not a full length sight rib

6.2.2 Approved Service Pistol Modifications

g) Slides may be milled immediately in front of and behind the rear sight 
dovetail slot to aid in securely mounting adjustable rear sights; a cut may 
be made in the rear of the slide to allow for rear sight clearance.

Jon

Just to make it more confusing, my Baer PPC model has the exact same sight and probably the same dovetail but I'm sure since it is not specifically on the list it would be illegal. oh, the irony of allowing Glocks but not a 1911.

Says that you can machine immediately in front or behind dovetail (assuming 1911 has a dovetail). Doesn't say you need a dovetail. I still believe they should be legal.
Jon

Don't you dare put a PPC style rear sight on that 9mm 1911.....

Even the NRA does it.
The Weigand s&w rear sight is allowed in Distinguished Revolver in PPC but not NRA.

I'm not saying anything is right or wrong or making any personal declarations here, simply trying to read the rules and interpreting without bring any other external assumptions to the table.  (If you want my personal opinion, the CMP is not very good at crafting or writing rules, and I said this would come up when they started the "Other Approved Service Pistol List", but that's another whole subject.)

Robert84010:

Unfortunately, your Les Baer is a 1911 Service Pistol under 6.2.3, since it is not specifically listed under 6.2.4. So the basic requirements of sections of 6.2.2 and 6.3.3 would come into play.

Jon:

You can't mill in front of or behind a dovetail that does not exist.  Therefor it would appear that a strict reading requires that a "dovetail" be on the slide.  Since there is nothing in the rules I can see that would even disallow a full Bo-Mar Rib, this appears to be the language that would preclude it as well, since the Bo-Mar Rib includes the rear sight and the front sight, without even bringing the "dovetail" language into play.  I can find no where else that could be interpreted as to preclude a full rib sight.  (Can someone point me to a section that precludes a full rib otherwise?) 

In general: 

As a matter interpretation, I believe that the previous rules (or interpretation given by the CMP) even went to the extent to identify that modification of the front sight to allow a dovetail front sight was included and even specified that there could be a rectangular area of the sight in the dovetail that did not have to be rounded to blend with the slide contour. 

Again, let the discussion continue.  I'm not picking or being sarcastic here, well, maybe just a little. Maybe the CMP will eventually make some more changes to "manage to the exception" and finally get to the point where you can shoot anything that can be held with one hand.  

My final observation is that the CMP opened this can of worms and we will have to keep asking questions until we get clear answers or just go fishing. 

CR

I think the mention of a dovetail is simply in reference to how a rear sight is typically attached. No where does it specifically say that a rear sight must be attached via dovetail. And no where does it specifically say that a rear sight attached in any other way is illegal. The way I see it, is I would follow the rules as listed and printed word for word. Not a rule that exists under assumption. Just my thought.

I agree with CR, I'm thinking that the approved list is more like an exemption. As long as it is factory stock on the pistol listed it is allowed but other guns can't be modified. Like the old days with the DCM and the Gold Cup. That cut above the extractor and the wide trigger was not allowed to be put on the standard 1911, it also had a thin full length rib that couldn't be put on the standard 1911. It seems as though Colt slipped someone a few bucks to get their Gold Cup approved and didn't want others to copy the features. I would think that if a Gold Cup Slide was fitted to the standard frame the average person checking the gun might not notice it. Now with the CMP it seems that someone sweetened the pot to get the PPC-9 approved. I also think that the low mount Bomar type sight was at first disallowed since it required the  slide to be cut though later it was allowed. The Gold CUP didn't have a dovetail cut.
 I would think that if someone showed up on the line with a stock PPC-9 it would be hard to argue that it being on the approved list yet another rule disallowed it when nothing in 6.2.1 nor 6.2.2 apply to it.
 So I don't think the CMP will listen to the argument that since it's allowed on the PPC-9 or any other gun on the approved list that the modification could be done to any gun. I know it was tried with the DCM that continued to refuse any Gold Cup type modification to the standard 1911. Simply because rule 6.2.2 lists what modifications are allowed. Granted the CMP is not the DCM.

It's says you can mount an adjustable rear sight but it does not define a legal and illegal adjustable rear sight. It says that the slide may be milled to accommodate said rear sight and in using the word "may" it reads to me as if "may" is "if it's needed". What if said adjustable sight doesn't need slide milled. What if it screws on? Rules do not clarify if that's permitted or not. It speaks that an adjustable rear sight is allowable but what's an adjustable rear sight?


Never mind... since "drilling and taping the slide to acomadate rear sight" isn't on the list of approved modifications then maybe the sight isn't allowed after all.... since they allow milling and mention that specifically... they didn't mention screwing in a sight.

The "dovetail" is mentioned since that is the standard (and only) mounting that is used on the stock, as issued, "U. S. Government or Colt M1911 Service Pistols or commercial versions of the same type (M1911)".

Which begs another question that I will pose for you all to consider (out of many that I have).  Is the Sig 1911 allowed?  It does not seem to be a "commercial version of the same type (M1911) as it has an extractor located on the outside of slide.  This is a significant design change, not simply a "commercial version" of the same type.  I think that the external appearance counts unless specifically exempted under 6.2.2. 

In addition, it is not on the list of "Other Approved Service Pistols" and the external extractor is not an allowed modification under 6.2.2.  (Even though they went to the extent of adding the allowance for additional "Gripping slots in the forward part of the slide" as and allowable modification, which does not change the design, only the appearance.)

Let the games continue but I'm done (at least for now).  But you guys please keep sending questions to the CMP.   Looking forward to their response.  

Cecil

Don't want to appear like a newbie but how does a rear sight adjust three ways and what would the advantage be?

Len

THE TRI-SET REAR SIGHT ADJUSTS FOR WINDAGE AND ELEVATION , ONLY 2 WAYS. BUT IT HAS 3 PRESET HEIGHT ADJUSTMENTS FOR THE FOLLOWING IN PPC ON A B27 SILHOUETTE TARGET.
 
POSITION 1 CENTER HOLD 7-25YDS
POSITION 2 NECK HOLD 25YDS
POSITION 3 NECK HOLD 50YDS

Ah, man. Good ol' Bullseye-L.

What's everyone's opinion on WD-40?

Makes a great fish lure. Spray it on your hoochies and Salmon go crazy. That's about all I have found it good for.  I heard it works good displacing water on airplane wings but never had a good opportunity to test. Fish lure not on their list of 2000 uses https://wd40.com/cool-stuff/history

JIMPGOV wrote:THE TRI-SET REAR SIGHT ADJUSTS FOR WINDAGE AND ELEVATION , ONLY 2 WAYS. BUT IT HAS 3 PRESET HEIGHT ADJUSTMENTS FOR THE FOLLOWING IN PPC ON A B27 SILHOUETTE TARGET.
 
POSITION 1 CENTER HOLD 7-25YDS
POSITION 2 NECK HOLD 25YDS
POSITION 3 NECK HOLD 50YDS

Are the elevation and windage adjustments any finer than a bomar?

Chris, the way it works. There are 3 set screws on a cam and a standard elevation screw. You set the elevation screw to 1 1/2 turns up. When shooting 7 yds, the cam is turned to "1" and the #1set screw adjusted for impact.
When shooting at 50yds the cam is set to "3" and #3 set screw adjusted for impact.

#2 is often used for a neck hold on the silhouette target, and #2 screw adjusted for impact.

The elevation screw is only used for changes in lighting conditions.it has the same clicks as a Bomar.
I hope I've got that right. Here's a link