scope mounting question for rifle shooters

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scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 7/25/2017, 10:17 am

First topic message reminder :

A question for those that have scope mounted target rifles.  Mounting a scope on a target rifle usually involves checking the alignment of the rings and lapping them to make them perfectly in line. Usually target rifles use two separate bases because of the scope length but a one piece base can be used on the shorter scopes. I understand the concept and have done it but never knew what would happen if I or anyone were to mount a scope on rings that when mounted were not inline.  My question is bullseye related because I haven't heard anyone doing it on pistol. I'm looking for the cause that would make a high end red dot change zero on a good grouping BE 1911 for no reason, when zero is adjusted again will remain OK for a while then change again after a few matches. If this were a problem experienced by a new shooter I wouldn't pay it much attention but I'm told of this by more than a few High Masters 2650+ shooters.
 I'm sure that the top of a 1911 slide is straight but I will check a few, A slide mount base should be straight but is it? However the rings do interest me in that I'm sure a set is made up of a pile of rings made at different times by different machine operators and possibly different machines.
 So does anyone know the results that would happen if someone were to purchase a good target rifle pre drilled for scope base, a high end target scope a good set of rings and bases and mounted them with out checking alignment and it was not aligned?

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/29/2017, 11:23 am

2 gunsmiths in the VA area are big frame mount fans =] Many people prefer the recoil feel of a slide mount optic
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 7/29/2017, 1:14 pm

I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/29/2017, 1:18 pm

Froneck wrote:I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.
Do you think it should the glass that is shifting or the tube?
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Ghillieman on 7/29/2017, 1:26 pm

1joel1 wrote:
Ghillieman wrote:Maybe so Frank. An optic on the slide of a pistol is receiving a sharp recoil in both directions and moving much faster and further than with a rifles recoil. I have noticed the aimpoint micro I have mounted on my 1911 slide seems to be throwing some oddball group shifts. Very small shifts, maybe one side of the 10 ring or the other. All I know is that I never seemed to have that problem with a frame mounted optic. I cant say for certain, but I have noticed small zero shifts, nothing like what you describe with the AMU. I would like to know what they come up with.

When you mount an optic, you should bias it forward (apply pressure forward) when tightening. This will eliminate any movement due to recoil. There are too many shooters that don't notice a shift in their zero so perhaps your unit was defective. Also, the recoil going backwards is much harsher that forward. Yes, I would imagine that a frame mounted optic would have less issues due to recoil.

Joel
Thank you Joel.
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Ghillieman on 7/29/2017, 1:34 pm

Froneck wrote:I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.
Frank, maybe this will give you an answer.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2013/12/4/scope-ring-lapping/
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by w4ti on 7/29/2017, 3:15 pm

Froneck wrote:I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.

I want to make sure I understand the problem:

1) HM/Armorer zero gun, shoot gun, agree with zero, go out, shoot a 26++ ?
2) Repeat step one some frequency and,
3) Somewhere along the way, the gun comes out of zero and has to be readjusted.

So, my questions are:

1) This is only an issue with 45ACP, yes?
2) Do we know what sort of ammo is practiced with? Jacketed, lead? FPS?
3) Assuming gun is taken out of case, not mishandled, shot, match over, then put back in case? Does an armorer or shooter touch it between matches other than practice? 
4) When you say comes out of zero, how much difference is being called/seen on target?
5) It is entirely possible that some technical gremlin is showing up, but I wonder about jostling of the gun in its case to and from practice/matches. Is there any strange pattern in terms of the way the gun travels (presumably always by ground)?
6) Also, does the gun come out of zero at random or at any sort of number of rounds, beginning of match, beginning of series, etc?

Lastly,

1) It could be that these HM's are internalizing errors as technical gremlins instead of just not that extra .01% to put them from 99.9% to 100%. 
2) I would be interested to know if the scopes fall out of alignment in the same way every time for this particular group, or at least the same way for each shooter.
3) I think it would be interesting to at least true up the rings and see if the problem goes away, and frankly, it's a cheap and pretty quick thing to do so it's not like you need a new gun or send it off to someone to get done.
4) I also wonder if there is something inconsistent in the triggering that is really responsible here. Once you are at that level (and I've only shot 6 matches, so I'm no expert), it is just the very lightest things that those shooters have to refine. It becomes more art at that point, and not so much science.

Interesting problem! Hope you get to the bottom of it.

Best,
Chase

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 7/30/2017, 10:30 am

Lots of questions w4ti, some would be hard to answer. Not only AMU shooter have mentioned this problem, I have even seen it mentioned here in this forum.
  First of all I doubt any High Master is going to mishandle his gun in a way that will cause zero change. Not to say that some place like Perry a wind can come along and flip gun boxes off the bench. Stuff happens but if it does zero change will be expected. With the AMU they are using Jacketed 185gr JHP. Custom loaded and tested by lot. The Zero change is Random but will function fine for the typical 1 day 2700 and next day may have Zero change. The amount of change is considerable yet when changed will remain OK  until it randomly changes again. For example Adam shot a great score last year at Perry in center fire, good enough to keep him in first place. Next day first shot slow fire was a low 6 called it a 10. Naturally when that happen most will blame themselves for doing something wrong so he shot again, another 6 in the same place, adjusted his sight and continued well enough to finish in second place by 3 points. This year he said his slow fire sights were adjusted well past his previous 25 yard settings, Markowski was shooting High. Yet both shot the same score (2657) at Canton a few days before with no sight problems.
 Most of your possibilities may be true for new shooters but I'm sure High Masters, Civilian or Military, will have identified those issues and corrected them.
 I doubt if there are any shooter issues, If it were the shooter changing the sight will not help. Then it wouldn't happen to every member. No one will handle a shooter's gun without the shooter knowing it and the smith that does work on the guns wouldn't do anything without telling the shooter or will he take the gun without the shooter knowing it.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/30/2017, 11:41 am

Froneck wrote:Lots of questions w4ti, some would be hard to answer. Not only AMU shooter have mentioned this problem, I have even seen it mentioned here in this forum.
  First of all I doubt any High Master is going to mishandle his gun in a way that will cause zero change. Not to say that some place like Perry a wind can come along and flip gun boxes off the bench. Stuff happens but if it does zero change will be expected. With the AMU they are using Jacketed 185gr JHP. Custom loaded and tested by lot. The Zero change is Random but will function fine for the typical 1 day 2700 and next day may have Zero change. The amount of change is considerable yet when changed will remain OK  until it randomly changes again. For example Adam shot a great score last year at Perry in center fire, good enough to keep him in first place. Next day first shot slow fire was a low 6 called it a 10. Naturally when that happen most will blame themselves for doing something wrong so he shot again, another 6 in the same place, adjusted his sight and continued well enough to finish in second place by 3 points. This year he said his slow fire sights were adjusted well past his previous 25 yard settings, Markowski was shooting High. Yet both shot the same score (2657) at Canton a few days before with no sight problems.
 Most of your possibilities may be true for new shooters but I'm sure High Masters, Civilian or Military, will have identified those issues and corrected them.
 I doubt if there are any shooter issues, If it were the shooter changing the sight will not help. Then it wouldn't happen to every member. No one will handle a shooter's gun without the shooter knowing it and the smith that does work on the guns wouldn't do anything without telling the shooter or will he take the gun without the shooter knowing it.
I think someone at Davis-Beese or Perry nuclear power plants fiddle with the dials during the nationals.


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 7/30/2017, 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 7/30/2017, 11:56 am

Chris, Is that why I glow in the dark after shooting at Perry all week?? lol!
Thanks Ghillieman for the link, it does mention Zero retention, also said tracking properly, I think that was another issue. One scope would require different number of "clicks" to make the same movement as another, plus when returning to same setting require again a different amount of clicks.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by w4ti on 7/30/2017, 3:15 pm

Froneck wrote:Lots of questions w4ti, some would be hard to answer. Not only AMU shooter have mentioned this problem, I have even seen it mentioned here in this forum.
  First of all I doubt any High Master is going to mishandle his gun in a way that will cause zero change. Not to say that some place like Perry a wind can come along and flip gun boxes off the bench. Stuff happens but if it does zero change will be expected. With the AMU they are using Jacketed 185gr JHP. Custom loaded and tested by lot. The Zero change is Random but will function fine for the typical 1 day 2700 and next day may have Zero change. The amount of change is considerable yet when changed will remain OK  until it randomly changes again. For example Adam shot a great score last year at Perry in center fire, good enough to keep him in first place. Next day first shot slow fire was a low 6 called it a 10. Naturally when that happen most will blame themselves for doing something wrong so he shot again, another 6 in the same place, adjusted his sight and continued well enough to finish in second place by 3 points. This year he said his slow fire sights were adjusted well past his previous 25 yard settings, Markowski was shooting High. Yet both shot the same score (2657) at Canton a few days before with no sight problems.
 Most of your possibilities may be true for new shooters but I'm sure High Masters, Civilian or Military, will have identified those issues and corrected them.
 I doubt if there are any shooter issues, If it were the shooter changing the sight will not help. Then it wouldn't happen to every member. No one will handle a shooter's gun without the shooter knowing it and the smith that does work on the guns wouldn't do anything without telling the shooter or will he take the gun without the shooter knowing it.
 Hi Froneck,

I doubt that any level shooter identifies all issues and corrects them- no one has shot a 2700 yet.  Smile  

1) I'd have the shooters count the amount of rounds between hiccups/re-zero event. I wonder if something is thumping the battery/circuitry instead of something mechanical, but...
2) True the scope rings, mount scope as normal. Take measurements of scope in rings on slide to the precision you can afford. After hiccup, remeasure and see if there is any distortion.
3) Check battery voltage, swap out for new brand of battery.

Last Q: is this issue only with scopes that are mounted via rings, or have there been other sorts of scopes this has happened with that are not mounted with rings?

Thanks,
Chase

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 7/31/2017, 12:27 am

How would battery voltage change the Zero? Basically the intensity knob connects various resistors to the LED, If battery voltage would change Zero then the intensity adjustment would also.
 As far as I know the only scope with the problem use rings to mount them.
 2650+ shooters must exceed 98 on every string of 10 shots, there's very little to correct and those that have shot 2650+ are a very special group that have applied the fundamentals and constantly search their shooting to improve and shoot better!

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by w4ti on 8/4/2017, 7:15 pm

Froneck wrote:How would battery voltage change the Zero? Basically the intensity knob connects various resistors to the LED, If battery voltage would change Zero then the intensity adjustment would also.
 As far as I know the only scope with the problem use rings to mount them.
 2650+ shooters must exceed 98 on every string of 10 shots, there's very little to correct and those that have shot 2650+ are a very special group that have applied the fundamentals and constantly search their shooting to improve and shoot better!

Hi Froneck,

I'm glad you found the answer. Be well!

Best,
Chase

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on 8/4/2017, 9:48 pm

I found the answer??? Wow now I only need to do is find what it is.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by w4ti on 8/5/2017, 1:57 pm

Hi Froneck,

It seems you've ruled everything out- it can't be the battery, it can't be the operator, and the only scopes this affects are those mounting in rings. Good luck in measuring the tube distortion and please make sure to send the results of your measurements to the board- I'm sure everyone will be quite interested! I, for one, would love to see how you index your measurements for a ring mounted scope and find the distortion when the sights change- are you going to be using a particular brand of rings that you true up first?

Best,
Chase
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/precision-pistol

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/11/2017, 4:20 pm

I want to make sure that the tone of this discussion maintains the standards that we expect here.

Some of the questions that are being asked in this thread are not feasible to prove and are debatable to answer. I wouldn't want any of the people who are sharing their thoughts to be discouraged from sharing because the response might have a short tone.

It's important to consider tone when writing since we do not have the benefit of body language or voice inflection here.

Carry on.
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