scope mounting question for rifle shooters

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scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on July 25th 2017, 11:17 am

First topic message reminder :

A question for those that have scope mounted target rifles.  Mounting a scope on a target rifle usually involves checking the alignment of the rings and lapping them to make them perfectly in line. Usually target rifles use two separate bases because of the scope length but a one piece base can be used on the shorter scopes. I understand the concept and have done it but never knew what would happen if I or anyone were to mount a scope on rings that when mounted were not inline.  My question is bullseye related because I haven't heard anyone doing it on pistol. I'm looking for the cause that would make a high end red dot change zero on a good grouping BE 1911 for no reason, when zero is adjusted again will remain OK for a while then change again after a few matches. If this were a problem experienced by a new shooter I wouldn't pay it much attention but I'm told of this by more than a few High Masters 2650+ shooters.
 I'm sure that the top of a 1911 slide is straight but I will check a few, A slide mount base should be straight but is it? However the rings do interest me in that I'm sure a set is made up of a pile of rings made at different times by different machine operators and possibly different machines.
 So does anyone know the results that would happen if someone were to purchase a good target rifle pre drilled for scope base, a high end target scope a good set of rings and bases and mounted them with out checking alignment and it was not aligned?

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on July 29th 2017, 12:23 pm

2 gunsmiths in the VA area are big frame mount fans =] Many people prefer the recoil feel of a slide mount optic
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on July 29th 2017, 2:14 pm

I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on July 29th 2017, 2:18 pm

Froneck wrote:I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.
Do you think it should the glass that is shifting or the tube?
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Ghillieman on July 29th 2017, 2:26 pm

1joel1 wrote:
Ghillieman wrote:Maybe so Frank. An optic on the slide of a pistol is receiving a sharp recoil in both directions and moving much faster and further than with a rifles recoil. I have noticed the aimpoint micro I have mounted on my 1911 slide seems to be throwing some oddball group shifts. Very small shifts, maybe one side of the 10 ring or the other. All I know is that I never seemed to have that problem with a frame mounted optic. I cant say for certain, but I have noticed small zero shifts, nothing like what you describe with the AMU. I would like to know what they come up with.

When you mount an optic, you should bias it forward (apply pressure forward) when tightening. This will eliminate any movement due to recoil. There are too many shooters that don't notice a shift in their zero so perhaps your unit was defective. Also, the recoil going backwards is much harsher that forward. Yes, I would imagine that a frame mounted optic would have less issues due to recoil.

Joel
Thank you Joel.
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Ghillieman on July 29th 2017, 2:34 pm

Froneck wrote:I don't want to get into which is better slide or frame mount. Those that like frame mount will never change anyway and I'm probably the same with slide mount.
What I'm asking is what will happen to a scope that's mounted to rings that are not inline. It would be like taking a scope and mounting it to a fixed solid object with only one ring on the front. A 10 pound weight hung on the rear at the location the ring would be attached. What will happen over tine? I know it will eventually bend and should do it slowly so that if mounted on a gun the small change in a short time will not be noticed and a click or 2 to correct the error will not be noticed. However if something were preventing the bending and the force eventually overcame that prevention could cause sudden movement.
Frank, maybe this will give you an answer.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2013/12/4/scope-ring-lapping/
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on July 30th 2017, 11:30 am

Lots of questions w4ti, some would be hard to answer. Not only AMU shooter have mentioned this problem, I have even seen it mentioned here in this forum.
  First of all I doubt any High Master is going to mishandle his gun in a way that will cause zero change. Not to say that some place like Perry a wind can come along and flip gun boxes off the bench. Stuff happens but if it does zero change will be expected. With the AMU they are using Jacketed 185gr JHP. Custom loaded and tested by lot. The Zero change is Random but will function fine for the typical 1 day 2700 and next day may have Zero change. The amount of change is considerable yet when changed will remain OK  until it randomly changes again. For example Adam shot a great score last year at Perry in center fire, good enough to keep him in first place. Next day first shot slow fire was a low 6 called it a 10. Naturally when that happen most will blame themselves for doing something wrong so he shot again, another 6 in the same place, adjusted his sight and continued well enough to finish in second place by 3 points. This year he said his slow fire sights were adjusted well past his previous 25 yard settings, Markowski was shooting High. Yet both shot the same score (2657) at Canton a few days before with no sight problems.
 Most of your possibilities may be true for new shooters but I'm sure High Masters, Civilian or Military, will have identified those issues and corrected them.
 I doubt if there are any shooter issues, If it were the shooter changing the sight will not help. Then it wouldn't happen to every member. No one will handle a shooter's gun without the shooter knowing it and the smith that does work on the guns wouldn't do anything without telling the shooter or will he take the gun without the shooter knowing it.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Chris Miceli on July 30th 2017, 12:41 pm

Froneck wrote:Lots of questions w4ti, some would be hard to answer. Not only AMU shooter have mentioned this problem, I have even seen it mentioned here in this forum.
  First of all I doubt any High Master is going to mishandle his gun in a way that will cause zero change. Not to say that some place like Perry a wind can come along and flip gun boxes off the bench. Stuff happens but if it does zero change will be expected. With the AMU they are using Jacketed 185gr JHP. Custom loaded and tested by lot. The Zero change is Random but will function fine for the typical 1 day 2700 and next day may have Zero change. The amount of change is considerable yet when changed will remain OK  until it randomly changes again. For example Adam shot a great score last year at Perry in center fire, good enough to keep him in first place. Next day first shot slow fire was a low 6 called it a 10. Naturally when that happen most will blame themselves for doing something wrong so he shot again, another 6 in the same place, adjusted his sight and continued well enough to finish in second place by 3 points. This year he said his slow fire sights were adjusted well past his previous 25 yard settings, Markowski was shooting High. Yet both shot the same score (2657) at Canton a few days before with no sight problems.
 Most of your possibilities may be true for new shooters but I'm sure High Masters, Civilian or Military, will have identified those issues and corrected them.
 I doubt if there are any shooter issues, If it were the shooter changing the sight will not help. Then it wouldn't happen to every member. No one will handle a shooter's gun without the shooter knowing it and the smith that does work on the guns wouldn't do anything without telling the shooter or will he take the gun without the shooter knowing it.
I think someone at Davis-Beese or Perry nuclear power plants fiddle with the dials during the nationals.


Last edited by Chris Miceli on July 30th 2017, 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on July 30th 2017, 12:56 pm

Chris, Is that why I glow in the dark after shooting at Perry all week?? lol!
Thanks Ghillieman for the link, it does mention Zero retention, also said tracking properly, I think that was another issue. One scope would require different number of "clicks" to make the same movement as another, plus when returning to same setting require again a different amount of clicks.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on July 31st 2017, 1:27 am

How would battery voltage change the Zero? Basically the intensity knob connects various resistors to the LED, If battery voltage would change Zero then the intensity adjustment would also.
 As far as I know the only scope with the problem use rings to mount them.
 2650+ shooters must exceed 98 on every string of 10 shots, there's very little to correct and those that have shot 2650+ are a very special group that have applied the fundamentals and constantly search their shooting to improve and shoot better!

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Froneck on August 4th 2017, 10:48 pm

I found the answer??? Wow now I only need to do is find what it is.

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Re: scope mounting question for rifle shooters

Post by Rob Kovach on August 11th 2017, 5:20 pm

I want to make sure that the tone of this discussion maintains the standards that we expect here.

Some of the questions that are being asked in this thread are not feasible to prove and are debatable to answer. I wouldn't want any of the people who are sharing their thoughts to be discouraged from sharing because the response might have a short tone.

It's important to consider tone when writing since we do not have the benefit of body language or voice inflection here.

Carry on.
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