Training time vs match time

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Training time vs match time

Post by 88keys on 10/19/2017, 11:55 am

I think the amount of time I shoot matches or match simulations vs training time might be out of balance. I shoot a 2700 most weekends, and Mon/Tues/Wed are match simulations (900 or NMC). I'm doing a lot of shooting and not seeing improvement. I get to the range maybe once or twice a week to work on specific things. What should the balance be? Should there be more focus on training? Thanks.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by robert84010 on 10/19/2017, 12:48 pm

I wish I had your problem. The closest outdoor NRA match to me is over 7 hours drive time.

If you are shooting 900/NMC every M/T/W how much are you dry firing in preparation for that? Some top shooters recommend at least a 5:1 dry fire to live fire ratio. How much are you doing blank target training instead of NMC over and over? When I had a coach it was always more about dry fire and blank targets over shooting for score each range session. If you are at a plateau I would recommend increasing the other stuff instead of shooting for score. Maybe one less 900/NMC session a week and one less 2700 a month but use that time on a range doing dry fire which is followed by blank targets and then one and two shot drills. Its tough to tell someone to not shoot a match but shooting matches doesn't necessarily make you a better shooter overall because you might just be doing the wrong stuff over and over.
It seems to me the break through always come from dry fire and the other training steps, not during a match. The match is when you execute all the other stuff and your results just show your work in the other areas.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by dronning on 10/19/2017, 1:31 pm

Take that M/T/W and use that range time to follow the USMC Pistol Team workbook.
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

Do you have a solid repeatable shot process?  Do you follow it 100% or close to it?  Do you keep track of what works so you can repeat it?

Dry fire.......Dry Fire.......Dry Fire
- Dave
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Jon Eulette on 10/19/2017, 3:35 pm

I used to shoot several weekend matches a month. One awesome year I shot 44 weekends! Just because its a match doesn't mean you can't use it to train. I'm of the opinion you have to shoot lots of match's to be good at competition. I have friends and acquaintances that are good shooters in practice but when its match time they fall on their face. Training and matches should be similar. You can break down your fundamentals and work on each one during the match. If it were me I'd spend the weekdays dry firing and working on individual fundamentals and shoot the matches on the weekends. The more the better! But you can't just go through the motions......dry firing or matches. Have a purpose.
Jon
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by BHeintz on 10/19/2017, 5:24 pm

I totally agree with Jon, I feel like shooting matches is the best practice.  It's good to both, shooting by yourself allows you to work on one specific thing as much or as little as you want. But a real match for me is the best place to figure out what works and what doesn't.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by CR10X on 10/19/2017, 6:01 pm

Rather than typing again, you could do a search on my posts on training versus practice. Good Shooting
CR

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Tim:H11 on 10/19/2017, 7:04 pm

88keys wrote:I think the amount of time I shoot matches or match simulations vs training time might be out of balance. I shoot a 2700 most weekends, and Mon/Tues/Wed are match simulations (900 or NMC). I'm doing a lot of shooting and not seeing improvement. I get to the range maybe once or twice a week to work on specific things. What should the balance be?   Should there be more focus on training? Thanks.


I don't believe there is a perfect or standard balance of practice, training and match time. I think each shooter on their own (or maybe they've got a mentor or coach to advise them) needs to find that balance for themselves. I've always said that what works for one shooter may not necessarily work for another. But to give you an idea I can tell you my experiences and that combined with what you'll read here by some very talented gunsmiths and shooters will be enough to probably point you in the right direction for you to find what you need to do for your self.

When I started shooting muzzle loading pistols (4.5 years ago) I shot a full national championship agg (1000 point agg) a week. I continued this until recently. My practice would be one of three guns Friday evening, the next Saturday morning and the last gun Sunday morning. Mid week I'd stop off to the range on my way home from work and shoot my 22 rimfire pistol. When I started to get a feel for what was going on, reading my mistakes, seeing things happen throughout the shot and understand what was happening I started to shoot 22 pistol less and use that time for brushing up on certain guns and certain targets. Anything that might have been a current issue. Follow through, hold, position, a process loading the gun, a cleaning protocol etc. The weekend remained my practice time. 

So week days were training days, and weekends were practice. Practice for me needs to be like the match so that when I get to a match, it's just like practice. The only exception is that theres more people there. In your head the match is "what counts". So theres pressure there but only if you let mess with your head. Again, treat it like practice. And in practice, you should treat it like a match. "But in practice I'm not shooting against anyone...?" Yes you are! You always are. Yourself. Keep a range of scores thats acceptable to you in your head. In the end gauge how well you did. Look back on the tough spots. The issues. Thats what training is for. Correct it. Like school sort of. Study and learn during the week because when the week is over theres a test! Test being the match of course. 
When I switched to bullseye from Muzzleloaders I kept my same thought process about this. I dry fire extensively throughout the week, I shoot more sustained fire with the 45 than I do slow fire. I shoot More slow fire with my 22 than I do sustained. But I still shoot a NMC, 600 or 900 (per gun) for a personal match against myself at the end of the week. So that I know where I stand. And I treat it like a match. Alibis and all. The focus, the mentality, everything. It has to be that way. This way like I said before, you get to the match and treat it like practice. which is like a match. But to truly get used to a match, the commands, the shooters, the process of scoring and repairing, the mind set, you need to shoot a lot of matches.

A balance....? Theres not a good answer there. There is just what you need to do to help you learn, maintain what you've learned, build on what you've learned, and move on. Your methods may vary from others. What I've described above works for me. May not work for you. But I firmly believe that your focus and attitude needs to be the same every time you pick up the gun. Be it dry fire, training, practice, or a match. If your focus is different from one to another you're chasing your tail buddy. And man thats a bad track to be on. Hope this helps. But personally I'd listen to guys like Jon, and CR. They're smart. They've done this a lot. And they're good for a reason.
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Chris Miceli on 10/19/2017, 7:48 pm

I like to base my performance on how I do at nationals, regionals , and state championships.

That’s when you run into the top shooters across many states
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by davekp on 10/20/2017, 7:14 am

Match performance is simply a DEMONSTRATION of how well you execute your training.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by mikemyers on 10/20/2017, 8:23 am

robert84010 wrote:.....how much are you dry firing in preparation for that? Some top shooters recommend at least a 5:1 dry fire to live fire ratio....
Keith Sanderson recommends that for every live round you fire, you should fire 100 dry-fire rounds.
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by 88keys on 10/24/2017, 9:22 am

Thanks for all the great responses.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Magload on 10/24/2017, 12:13 pm

mikemyers wrote:
robert84010 wrote:.....how much are you dry firing in preparation for that? Some top shooters recommend at least a 5:1 dry fire to live fire ratio....
Keith Sanderson recommends that for every live round you fire, you should fire 100 dry-fire rounds.
100 to 1 would be living you life dry-firing.  5 to 1 is bad enough.  That is a whole lot of dry fires to shoot a 2700 and I have other things in life to do.  So let me ask.  Say you are going to shoot a 900 this weekend and maybe a 100 rounds of practice one day before the match just to be sure everything is working and I am sure we all just like to put rounds down range as often as possible.  How much time during the week will it take you to shoot 950 dry-fires.  Not even going to ask about 19,000 dry fires   Then too maybe I am not committed to this sport enough.  Don
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by davekp on 10/25/2017, 6:46 am

I used to dry fire 100 shots twice a day. That's 1000 during the week. I usually could do live fire training only once a week max, so each dry fire session was important for physical and mental execution. 
Depends on how committed you want to be.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by BE Mike on 10/25/2017, 8:26 am

Lots of good advice here. My first suggestion is a question. Do you have a written shot plan? Second question is what are your written goals? Since you are an Expert, you should be studying the mental side of the game. Have you done any mental training or read any books on mental training? Do you do any visualization?
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by 88keys on 10/31/2017, 11:29 am

I do have a shot plan and have been studying the mental part of the game.  I read the Bassham book and Raymond Prior's Bullseye Mind, which I find very applicable.  Have to say, though, I haven't been a big proponent of visualization but there so much out there about it and the mental side that it's worth putting more time and effort into. My thoughts have always been, if it's that easy, everyone would be doing it and we'd all be champions!  Work to be done.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by weber1b on 10/31/2017, 12:44 pm

Remember as one great sage once said. This sport is 95% mental, the rest is in your head.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Jon Eulette on 10/31/2017, 2:12 pm

weber1b wrote:Remember as one great sage once said. This sport is 95% mental, the rest is in your head.

I have a torn labrum in both shoulders. My shooting arm tear is 1cm (0.4"). I have almost no hold. I can barely keep red dot in the black @ 50 yds. But what I do have is proper application of the fundamentals. I haven't practiced in over 2 months because of the shoulder pain. I dry fire just a little and visualize shooting daily. In the last month I've shot two 2700's (we only have 2 a year locally and I drove to Phoenix for the other) and had a 2601 & 2615. Not even close to my glory days but I share to make a point. If you know what each fundamental is. If you work on knowing how to apply each one. You can do it successfully with little live fire. I will take dry practice over live 90% of the time. It's because I really see the value in it. Live fire only reinforces that I'm properly applying the dry practice. Too many shooters think shooting hundreds of rounds every weekend makes them a better shooter. In most cases it does not. Go back and analyze your dry practice vs. live practice. If your not improving I would bet its because your shooting but not really training. Dry practice includes visualization. When you finally really see what's going on when executing a great shot, you will know you're doing right. There will be no doubts. I know it's not as much fun, but if you want to get better you gotta do it. Trigger, trigger, trigger.
Jon
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Aprilian on 10/31/2017, 2:33 pm

Jon, I'm interested in your opinion on one aspect of live fire training.   

I dry fire most evenings and have learned a lot. I have even stayed away from the range for a couple months in order to get solid repetition of good shots in dry fire.  Now I can dry fire with barely any movement of the dot.  

However, I feel live fire is necessary for me to get fully accustomed to the recoil - in order to stop anticipating the recoil and driving the pistol down prematurely before the shot leaves the barrel.    Is there a better way to carry over the calm experience of dry firing an X to executing the same with the sound and movement of live fire?   I have only been shooting .45 around a year so I don't have the years of acclimatizing to the force of it which others have.

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Jack H on 10/31/2017, 3:00 pm

Quote of the month from Jon, especially the underlined

Too many shooters think shooting hundreds of rounds every weekend makes them a better shooter. In most cases it does not. Go back and analyze your dry practice vs. live practice. If your not improving I would bet its because your shooting but not really training. Dry practice includes visualization. When you finally really see what's going on when executing a great shot, you will know you're doing right. There will be no doubts. I know it's not as much fun, but if you want to get better you gotta do it. Trigger, trigger, trigger.
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Jon Eulette on 10/31/2017, 3:26 pm

Aprilian wrote:Jon, I'm interested in your opinion on one aspect of live fire training.   

However, I feel live fire is necessary for me to get fully accustomed to the recoil - 
Ian

I sometimes forget I was a newby 45 shooter. Yes you need to shoot to learn to physically and mentally become accustomed to recoil and noise. Through dry practice you learn your triggers 'feel'. When you live fire you should still 'feel' the trigger movement before the shot breaks. So focus (you are training) on feeling the trigger move straight to the rear. If your focus is pure you will not be thinking about recoil as the shot breaks. You can also alternate between a dry shot and a live shot. Work on feeling the trigger move. That's why I shoot a short roll.....I can feel it all the way up to the break. Crisp triggers are tough when battling chicken finger because you think you are squeezing but you can't 'feel' if your squeezing. Another way to look at it. Gun will recoil when you execute good trigger squeeze or if you jerk the trigger. Gun is going to recoil! Why not just focus on good trigger squeeze and let it recoil? I never think about recoil even when I shot hardball. My only recoil thought now is did it recoil consistently? Remember a 10 has a feel to it; the recoil Wink
Jon
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Aprilian on 10/31/2017, 4:03 pm

Thanks Jon.   I like the idea of alternating between dry and live fire when at the range.   I had a similar thought a while ago of taking 10 dry before one live but didn't follow through on that exercise.  Why? - someone rebuilt my wad gun with incredible lock up   Laughing  and I have to change grip to take it back out of battery before chambering a live round. That seems to completely undo the trigger "feel" I had just practiced.  

When will the slide get loose enough to rack it with my hands?  Is that something I even want to loosen up?
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Magload on 10/31/2017, 7:34 pm

Ian my LB is a pain to rack and when she starts to get dirty she is even worst.  I have a 9mm race gun that has a slide racker on it that fits in the dove tail cut.  i needed it as it was hard to grasp the gear of the slide  the way the scope was mounted.  Wish the LB had of had a cut in it. A lot of people complain about how hard a M&P Shield is to rack but I can sling shot it fine but then it doesn't have a scope on it.  Don
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by LenV on 10/31/2017, 7:54 pm

They say trigger time is trigger time. I spend around 6 hours a day dry firing. I just need to find someone that can put a decent 3.5 lb trigger in this thing. Shocked

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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by Magload on 10/31/2017, 7:57 pm

Len a good trigger is not going to help the barrel is bent.  Don
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Re: Training time vs match time

Post by shaky452 on 10/31/2017, 11:35 pm

If you search You Tube for " Keith Sanderson dry fire" you'll find a very good video on dry firing. He just won the ISSF World Cup Final in rapid fire pistol, by the way.

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