Designing a pistol box

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Designing a pistol box

Post by Guest on 11/9/2017, 5:48 pm

Designing a pistol box

What would be great features in a good custom box?

For example: have the pistols face into the box instead of across it. No drawer needed on this level, but the box would be wider. This brings up the questions: what are the largest bullseye guns, tallest, longest?

What is the best spotting scope mount?

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by JKR on 11/9/2017, 6:02 pm

How would you feel about standing on the firing line with someones boxed pistols pointing at you? I wouldn't be comfortable with that. 

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Magload on 11/9/2017, 6:13 pm

I believe I have read post here that it is not proper to put pistols in the box that point 180 degrees from the targets. Don
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Wobbley on 11/9/2017, 6:27 pm

This point everything downrange seems relatively new.  We used to alternate directions to accommodate grips etc.  there were plenty of pictures of boxes where guns were alternated.  I get the concept of all guns pointed downrange but there are also times when boxes get swung up and down and all around.  So they can be pointed anywhere.  Just sayin.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Multiracer on 11/9/2017, 7:40 pm

Wobbley wrote:This point everything downrange seems relatively new.  We used to alternate directions to accommodate grips etc.  there were plenty of pictures of boxes where guns were alternated.  I get the concept of all guns pointed downrange but there are also times when boxes get swung up and down and all around.  So they can be pointed anywhere.  Just sayin.

I agree with what you are saying, I have a couple three with "grip hooks" on them. I would love to alternate directions.
Does anyone know for sure if we have to present our boxes with all firearms pointed down range ?  I heard at Perry they were a stickler about this. Suspect

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by LenV on 11/9/2017, 7:57 pm

With custom grips on my pistols there is no way to get them in the box all facing forward. That said I still try to make some accommodations. I sometimes remove the grips on the pistols so they all fit in one direction. Sometimes I turn the box around and remove the backwards pistol while it is pointed down range. What I don't do is ever handle a pistol while it is not pointed down range. This satisfies the RO's here in Oregon and at Perry there is no reason to bring all your pistols to the line anyhow.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by SteveT on 11/9/2017, 8:14 pm

Before I get into my late night, gun-box fantasies, I'll just say it's hard to beat the classic Pachmyr style and I very much prefer all guns pointing down range.

Here are my ideas for a dream gun box, more or less in order of importance and feasibility.

1. Lightweight, strong, comfortable to carry
2. Lots of room
3. Easy option for mounting spotting scope
4. Easy option for clamping to bench at Perry
5. Adjustable tray height
6. Lots of options for holding odds and ends
7. Access to eye & ear protection without opening main door
8. Strong enough to sit on
9. Brass Screen / Deflector
10. Carry a full size notebook
11. Lights
12. Protection from Rain even when open
13. Gun Bracket that shields from sun/rain but RO can still see ECI and empty mag well
14. Waterproof
15. Big enough or adjustable to be a wind break where you need it
16. Brass Catcher
17. Wheels and Handle
18. Built in Hovercraft
19. Telescopic Camera, Display and recorder
19a. Camera with automatic scoring and recording
19b. Split screen on the video with target and a camera on the shooter

1. Lightweight and strong. I might add repairable. I had a friend drop one of the aluminum boxes. It wasn't a bad drop, but it hit the corner and bent it out of shape. Old heavy wood boxes can be repaired. Metal boxes not so much. Anybody want to experiment with carbon fiber gun boxes Smile

3. Spotting scope. There is nothing wrong with the Gil Heberd style scope mount, it's pretty compact and reliable, but someone more clever than me might be able to come up with something that could just be moved to position and the scope would stay there. It would only save a few seconds, but sometimes at Camp Perry a few more seconds in prep or at the short line helps.

4. Bench Clamp. Quite a few years ago I saw a guy at Camp Perry who had a metal L bracket with a slot cut in in and a threaded insert in the box with a knurled handle bolt holding it in place. Normally the L bracket was raised all the way up, agains the bottom of the box. When he set his box on the bench he loosened the bolt, put the L under the bench and then re-tightened. It held the box in place pretty well. I've always meant to do something similar, but never took the time. Another option is some kind of strap and hook that is easy to loop under the bench and snap or latch in place.

5. Adjustable tray height. Why not? Put a few threaded inserts in the sides at even intervals, so it can accommodate any scope height, but if you have a lower scope or shoot opens you can raise it up and have more room underneath.

6. Odds and Ends. I have a lot of crap rattling around in my gun box. The oil container keeps getting knocked over and squeezed. I have to rummage around for the magazine thumb saver, flashlight, screwdriver. I've seen some bent metal magazine holders (good for non-magnetic mags). I'd like the same thing for my oil bottle, sight adjustment tools (screwdriver, Aimpoint Prong Wrench, Ultradot battery cover tool), maybe a compartment for dummy rounds, small flashlight, pens, barrel rods...

7. Access. I really like the old Pachmyr boxes with the back door. I should have bought one years ago. Especially at Perry you can't open your gun box, so I keep my eye and ear protection outside, which is more stuff to keep together and not fall out of the card halfway across the field.

8. Sit on it Ralph. Why carry a chair? I've got a box that's about the same height.

12. Waterprrofing side note - I don't want to put my box down in the wet grass or mud at Perry. A waterproof box, or at least the bottom 3-4 inches, would be cool.

9. Brass Deflector. I've seen some clever arms with deflectors that rotate up into position and lock. Much easier than getting the screen out from the back of my box and getting 2 spring clamps from the clutter in the bottom and then trying to get it in the right position using the box door and scope mount arm. There's got to be a better way. Unfortunately I've got the CMM brass catcher bracket on the back of my box, so it would be harder to add a deflector.

11. Lights. With LEDs cheap and tiny and batteries pretty good a few lights on the top of the box and a few under the tray would be handy. I keep a small flashlight in my box when shooting indoors, but then I only have one hand to rummage through the junk.

12, 13, 14. I know this is starting to get into fantasy. Nonetheless, when it might rain, I put my gun in the gun box between targets to keep it dry. I do the same thing at Perry in the sun to keep it cool. Some range officers don't like this because they can't see the magazine-well to verify it is clear. I can picture a bracket with 2 "U" hooks that supports the gun at about a 45 degree angle, under the overhang of the box. From the outside a RO can see the ECI and the bottom of the mag well. How cool would that be?

15. The eternal Camp Perry question... How to you block the wind, without looking like you are blocking the wind and without carrying a condo-sized gun box?

19. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Cameras are getting cheap. Displays are getting cheap. Why are digital spotting scopes either crappy toys or really expensive? Once we have digital video why can't we have software that can identify bullet holes in the target? OK I know why because I tried writing software that can do it and it wasn't easy, but I am a terrible programmer with no experience in image processing. I am convinced that to someone knowledgeable it wouldn't be that difficult. Once you have that info it would be pretty easy to extract things like cadence and timing. Add a high res video of the shooter and it might be possible to identify movements or actions the precede good or bad shots. Oh yeah and it would look downrange, find my target and focus on it. The first time I'd probably have to direct it, then it would identify the target number and automatically re-align when moved, including moving between long and short lines.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Froneck on 11/9/2017, 8:44 pm

I have shot at a few matches that require that ALL pistols including those in the box on the range must be pointing down range. Range officer will walk the line and check to see that guns in the box as well as the one on the bench are pointing down range. One range also requires an EIC must also be in the guns in boxes on the line and pointed down range. Few years ago these same ranges did not require that. Not sure why the change but I expect more ranges will begin requiring guns in the box on the bench must all point down range.
 That's another reason I got a 2 gun box because my 5 gun box can not comply with all guns in the box pointing down range rule. Though I can get 3 guns pointing down range and not have any in the other 2 spots. So it becomes a 3 gun box.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Magload on 11/9/2017, 9:38 pm

Steve I have a Phone app that will score a target.  Only used it a couple times but it was right on.  App is Target Scan and it has BE targets.  You also input the caliber.  Since it uses the camera it could be used with the spotting scope maybe.  I have a mount for my IPhone on the scope eye piece put the setup just takes to long.  Need a red dot on the scope to aim it.  Don

I have a 4 gun Strong Box and can get 3 guns pointed down range I put that stiff foam sheets between them as they rub each other.  I have done 4 with two pointed the wrong way but then the box weights 39 pounds and I don't even put ammo in it.  Don
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Guest on 11/9/2017, 9:38 pm

JKR wrote:How would you feel about standing on the firing line with someones boxed pistols pointing at you? I wouldn't be comfortable with that. 

Jim
Good point. I stand corrected.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Guest on 11/9/2017, 9:41 pm

LenV wrote:With custom grips on my pistols there is no way to get them in the box all facing forward. That said I still try to make some accommodations. I sometimes remove the grips on the pistols so they all fit in one direction. Sometimes I turn the box around and remove the backwards pistol while it is pointed down range. What I don't do is ever handle a pistol while it is not pointed down range. This satisfies the RO's here in Oregon and at Perry there is no reason to bring all your pistols to the line anyhow.

Good point. Since we're designing, how many inches wide should each gun position be? This will influence the depth of the box.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Guest on 11/9/2017, 9:46 pm

Magload wrote:Steve I have a Phone app that will score a target.  Only used it a couple times but it was right on.  App is Target Scan and it has BE targets.  You also input the caliber.  Since it uses the camera it could be used with the spotting scope maybe.  I have a mount for my IPhone on the scope eye piece put the setup just takes to long.  Need a red dot on the scope to aim it.  Don

I have a 4 gun Strong Box and can get 3 guns pointed down range I put that stiff foam sheets between them as they rub each other.  I have done 4 with two pointed the wrong way but then the box weights 39 pounds and I don't even put ammo in it.  Don


No luck on the Galaxy iNote8. I found an ISSF scorer.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Tim:H11 on 11/9/2017, 10:11 pm

Ive only been to matches local to me so my experience is limited. The last match I shot at (in October) there were a couple of shooters with euro guns for 22 and centerfire with big fancy grips and to fit them in the box they had to be alternating directions. No one said anything about that and no one raised it as an issue. There were ECI’s in place so maybe that was the point that made it ok. I don’t know. I didn’t ask. A long time ago as I understand it, this was common practice and more today than in the past has it been an issue. I’m not sure as to why. With no mags in the gun and an ECI in place I don’t see how much more safe one could get. At the same time I don’t support aimless and haphazardly waving guns about with no care as to where they are pointed but we are talking about a specific circumstance - match guns, at a match, where some safety rules are practiced that aren’t considered common such as an ECI. A lot of effort is made to ensure a safe match is run. Example: we don’t handle guns until the command to do so is given. We don’t load guns until the command to do so is given. When we go safe ECI’s MUST be in place and magazines out. The gun isn’t going to do anything on its own. It’s an inanimate object only fired when loaded, cocked and trigger pressed. 

All that said I prefer my guns all pointing down range because it clears up the other side of the box for my magazines, staple gun, and head set and a couple of other pieces of cleaning equipment. I don’t do it for safety but it probably brings peace of mind to others.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Guest on 11/9/2017, 10:52 pm

To review so far:

Steve Turner
Pres. 100 Pistol
Dist. Pistol #1421
NRA Dist. Rev. #199
Dist 22 Rimfire #6

Before I get into my late night, gun-box fantasies, I'll just say it's hard to beat the classic Pachmyr style and I very much prefer all guns pointing down range.

Here are my ideas for a dream gun box, more or less in order of importance and feasibility.

----------In working towards a drafting layout:

1. Lightweight, strong, comfortable to carry
Number of lbs? Padded strap?

2. Lots of room
Inside dimensions, actual space-width of shelves?

3. Easy option for mounting spotting scope
Does the scope have to mount outside the lid; since the box has to be closed at some matches? Maybe an option?

4. Easy option for clamping to bench at Perry
Bungies and hooks? What's the width of the table tops there?

5. Adjustable tray height

6. Lots of options for holding odds and ends
Velcro, bungy, etc?

7. Access to eye & ear protection without opening the main door
Retractable hooks to hang them on?

8. Strong enough to sit on
Good thought.

9. Brass Screen / Deflector

10. Carry a full-size notebook
What's the area of the largest notebook? This affects the dimensions of the floor of the box.

11. Lights
Good thought.

12. Protection from Rain even when open
Good thought.

13. Gun Bracket that shields from sun/rain but RO can still see ECI and empty mag well
Good thought.

14. Waterproof
Good thought. Especially the bottom and four inches up the sides. Sealed in marine grade sealer.

15. Big enough or adjustable to be a windbreak where you need it
Good thought.

16. Brass Catcher
Good thought. Or space to fold/roll catcher net up and store.

17. Wheels and Handle
A Must. Maybe made to fit horizontally within the Product Dimensions 26 x 9 x 37 inches of the

DEWALT DWST08210 Tough System L-Cart Carrier? Optionally carry bungied rifles to the line.
Web address at Amazon
Metal carrier with adjustable foldable brackets allow tailored configuration
Central locking mechanism secures the boxes to the frame
Can handle materials up to 260 lbs.




18. Built-in Hovercraft

---RE: 19: Whoever designs, builds, and patents this system can print money.


19. Telescopic Camera, Display, and recorder
19a. Camera with automatic scoring and recording
19b. Split screen on the video with target and a camera on the shooter

1. Lightweight and strong. I might add repairable. I had a friend drop one of the aluminum boxes. It wasn't a bad drop, but it hit the corner and bent it out of shape. Old heavy wood boxes can be repaired. Metal boxes not so much. Anybody want to experiment with carbon fiber gun boxes Smile

3. Spotting scope. There is nothing wrong with the Gil Heberd style scope mount, it's pretty compact and reliable, but someone more clever than me might be able to come up with something that could just be moved to position and the scope would stay there. It would only save a few seconds, but sometimes at Camp Perry, a few more seconds in prep or at the short line helps.
Gil Heberd style scope mount
http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepistol/product.php?productid=42

4. Bench Clamp. Quite a few years ago I saw a guy at Camp Perry who had a metal L bracket with a slot cut in and a threaded insert in the box with a knurled handle bolt holding it in place. Normally the L bracket was raised all the way up, against the bottom of the box. When he set his box on the bench he loosened the bolt, put the L under the bench and then re-tightened. It held the box in place pretty well. I've always meant to do something similar, but never took the time. Another option is some kind of strap and hook that is easy to loop under the bench and snap or latch in place.

5. Adjustable tray height. Why not? Put a few threaded inserts in the sides at even intervals, so it can accommodate any scope height, but if you have a lower scope or shoot opens you can raise it up and have more room underneath.

6. Odds and Ends. I have a lot of crap rattling around in my gun box. The oil container keeps getting knocked over and squeezed. I have to rummage around for the magazine thumb saver, flashlight, screwdriver. I've seen some bent metal magazine holders (good for non-magnetic mags). I'd like the same thing for my oil bottle, sight adjustment tools (screwdriver, Aimpoint Prong Wrench, Ultradot battery cover tool), maybe a compartment for dummy rounds, small flashlight, pens, barrel rods...
Wooden Cigar boxes. Dimensions dependent on dimensions of the shelf or vice versa.

7. Access. I really like the old Pachmyr boxes with the back door. I should have bought one year ago. Especially at Perry, you can't open your gun box, so I keep my eye and ear protection outside, which is more stuff to keep together and not fall out of the card halfway across the field.
Let's design a door or doors.

8. Sit on it, Ralph. Why carry a chair? I've got a box that's about the same height.
It will have wheels. A folding stool can ride on it.

12. Waterproofing side note - I don't want to put my box down in the wet grass or mud at Perry. A waterproof box, or at least the bottom 3-4 inches, would be cool.

9. Brass Deflector. I've seen some clever arms with deflectors that rotate up into position and lock. Much easier than getting the screen out from the back of my box and getting 2 spring clamps from the clutter in the bottom and then trying to get it in the right position using the box door and scope mount arm. There's got to be a better way. Unfortunately, I've got the CMM brass catcher bracket on the back of my box, so it would be harder to add a deflector.

11. Lights. With LEDs cheap and tiny and batteries pretty good a few lights on the top of the box and a few under the tray would be handy. I keep a small flashlight in my box when shooting indoors, but then I only have one hand to rummage through the junk.
Good thought.


12, 13, 14. I know this is starting to get into fantasy. Nonetheless, when it might rain, I put my gun in the gun box between targets to keep it dry. I do the same thing at Perry in the sun to keep it cool. Some range officers don't like this because they can't see the magazine-well to verify it is clear. I can picture a bracket with 2 "U" hooks that support the gun at about a 45-degree angle, under the overhang of the box. From the outside, a RO can see the ECI and the bottom of the mag well. How cool would that be?
Let's put that in the design: a bracket with 2 "U" hooks that supports the gun at about a 45-degree angle, under the overhang of the box. From the outside, a RO can see the ECI and the bottom of the mag well.

15. The eternal Camp Perry question... How do you block the wind, without looking like you are blocking the wind and without carrying a condo-sized gun box?

19. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Cameras are getting cheap. Displays are getting cheap. Why are digital spotting scopes either crappy toys or really expensive? Once we have digital video why can't we have software that can identify bullet holes in the target? OK, I know why because I tried writing software that can do it and it wasn't easy, but I am a terrible programmer with no experience in image processing. I am convinced that to someone knowing it wouldn't be that difficult. Once you have that info it would be pretty easy to extract things like cadence and timing. Add a high res video of the shooter and it might be possible to identify movements or actions the precede good or bad shots. Oh yeah, and it would look downrange, find my target and focus on it. The first time I'd probably have to direct it, then it would identify the target number and automatically re-align when moved, including moving between long and short lines.
19:
Whoever designs, builds, and patents this system can print money.
19. Telescopic Camera, Display, and recorder
19a. Camera with automatic scoring and recording
19b. Split screen on the video with target and a camera on the shooter


_________________
Steve Turner
Pres. 100 Pistol
Dist. Pistol #1421
NRA Dist. Rev. #199
Dist 22 Rimfire #6

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by CR10X on 11/10/2017, 5:58 am

Just one or maybe two thoughts on this.

First, remember that there is no standard bench size for ranges.  There are some that have pedestals that are barely big enough for just a normal size box, others have 4 feet of linear space, the top is 6 inches thick and 3 feet deep, etc. etc.  

Second, the are a few stories about some of the past National Pistol Championship winners that went to the line each day with only a gun, ammo, scope, screwdriver, pen, score sheets and went home with the trophy.  

(I do have more stuff than that, but its getting less every year.  But I do generally have a complete backup box and guns in the car when traveling to matches. By backup, I mean I use two different boxes depending on the shooting being done.  A match box and a training box, which provide more options for me than just one box and a extra bag. And the training box is available for shooters that show up without stuff or have issues at the matches. Both carry guns and ammo, but the other stuff is much less in the match box.  And each gun tray is removable for storage in the safe with guns still in them, saves a lot of load / unload time.)

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Froneck on 11/10/2017, 7:34 am

I understand that guns in the box have a very low chance of shooting, having an EIC in the boxed guns lowers that to Zero as it would be impossible for a gun with an EIC inserted to be able to shoot. Why some ranges are requiring that all guns in the box must point down range even with and EIC inserted when on the bench seems to be extreme. Plus some ranges require both, EIC in guns pointing down range in the box while on the bench! I'm thinking someone that knows very little about gun safety came up with it and it might be an Insurance Company. However it seems each year another range adds that rule. So if designing a Pistol box I would include that feature.

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 11/10/2017, 7:37 am

It seems to me that as you add capacity to your container you usually find MORE STUF THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/10/2017, 8:03 am

As digital scopes and scoring were mentioned, I'll mention this product again.
Really interesting, and I'd love to hear from people that have actually used it and better get to see the system in person. Either the Hawk spotting scope add-on or the software with the other cameras they sell. The spotting scope camera seems to be eternally out-of-stock.
https://targetvisioncam.com/collections/products/products/hawk-pre-order-ships-june-2016
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Jon Math on 11/10/2017, 8:32 am

I have an old traditional box that was built before the days of scoped pistols.  I had to move the shelf down and because of that I don’t have enough room under the shelf to keep the scope mounted.  So I have ended up carrying the scope, ear muffs, stapler and the hard case for my eye glasses in a separate Pelican knock off container, kind of defeating the purpose of a box. 

I often travel to shoot, so I’m on the fence about either setting up a bigger Pelican box as a pistol box or getting a modern sized Strong pistol box.  I believe the Pelican would be better protection for the pistols during travel; and the Strong, being the long established gold standard, would be easier to shoot from.  I suppose the best of both worlds might be a small pistol only sized Pelican box for travel and transfer the pistols to the Strong when I arrive at the matches.

Has anyone here turned a Pelican into a range box?  I’d love to hear what size was used and what if anything you would change if you had it to do over again. I also wonder how to attach the scope mount to the lid of a Pelican.  I really don’t want to drill through the top; I was wondering if a block of wood epoxy glued to the inside work as a place to screw the base of a scope mount?

Thanks

Jon
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by CR10X on 11/10/2017, 9:16 am

I've done the Pelican. I'd recommend starting with the 1550 size, not too big and has depth to handle scoped bullseye guns.  Get the TrekPak inserts, do not get the standard foam, for the box you get and get some extra pieces.  Get the lid stays to hold the top open (they are hard to find but are on the website.)  You will need to drill the top for the scope mount and use some tube type spacers and longer mounting screws to get clearance for the Gil Hebbard type of scope mount, but it will be very stable if done correctly. The spacers and longer screws are available Lowes Hardware, etc.  (Glue always comes off eventually, you can seal the screws if needed.)  

Get the brass catcher with the appropriate length rods so it will fit inside the case. CMM has different height rods. Set the pistols to be held upright, with a box deep enough to take your scoped pistols, it saves space. You will need a bench strap or tie down as the weight is a little light and the top as a big surface area when the wind blows.  You will need to reinforce your brass screen sides and work a little to get a good setup on the top when used. Set up the compartments so the heavy ammo and guns are at or near the bottom when sitting upright.  I put the guns on the back side bottom and space for the ammo on the front side bottom.  When done properly, the guns don't move at all and everything stayed stable.  I set up the extra compartments sized for various plastic boxes used to hold any the extra stuff.  You can't just chunk stuff in like a regular box because you're always going from standing the box upright to laying it down.   

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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Jon Math on 11/10/2017, 9:25 am

Thanks for the advise.  I always found the “pick and pluck” foam gives decent protection but also takes up a lot of space at the same time.  I will have to look into the divider system you suggest, it sounds perfect.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Magload on 11/10/2017, 10:01 am

I seen a add in a gun magazine where the company water cut the foam to your design.  They said they had software you use to design what you needed.  It also used the proper foam for gun boxes.  They also sold the cases.  Don
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Wobbley on 11/10/2017, 10:20 am


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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/10/2017, 10:23 am

Magload wrote:I seen a add in a gun magazine where the company water cut the foam to your design.  They said they had software you use to design what you needed.  It also used the proper foam for gun boxes.  They also sold the cases.  Don
Found these guys yesterday while searching for ideas for my "ideal" carry equipment:
https://www.mycasebuilder.com/

I've seen others that do the same as well.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

Post by jmdavis on 11/10/2017, 10:24 am

The problem with pick and plug is that it sucks up moisture. That can be a BAD thing. When using a pelican for rifle, in particular, I always close it to avoid putting a gun in a damp case. With pistol we likely want to keep it open if it is where our scope mounts 

Ed Hall uses a Pelican, I forget the model,. And has a separate scope mounted on an adjustable clamp. Maybe he can comment. But I have seen it work at Perry and at Fairfax, which are pretty different setups.
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Re: Designing a pistol box

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