What is a Marksman?

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What is a Marksman?

Post by LenV on 11/29/2017, 1:01 am

What is a Marksman. A Marksman is someone who has actually shot enough NRA Precision Pistol matches to earn the classification. It is not a classification you get by never having fired a shot in a match. An individual that has never shot in a match or is just beginning and has not fired 360 rounds is officially considered "unclassified" (may have a temporary classification). I only bring this up because it is important when we connect with other members on this forum to know if they have shot a match before. Some concepts are hard to explain to an individual that has never actually been there done that but they put down that they are classified "Marksman". Everybody has a right to their own opinion. Classifications you have to earn. Just my .02

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Mike38 on 11/29/2017, 7:29 am

Good point. If you've stood on the line for 360 rounds, in the cold/rain/wind/heat... regardless of the score, you have at least earned the title Marksman.  That's more than 99% of pistol shooters have done.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by sharkdoctor on 11/29/2017, 8:00 am

While reading some recent posts on this site I too, thought clarification for use of the term might be useful.  Any formal classification means you've been there, done that.

Thx for the post.

PS. My first classification was as a 22lr prone shooter (long ago).  I still have my Promarksman certificate.  Not only was I a "Marksman", I was a "Pro" Marksman!  Pretty cool, until I realized I hadn't made Marksman yet.

PPS (edited to add) - I just wanted to add that all are welcome - one has to start somewhere, so go get on the line, shoot what you have, and get started - it's a great sport!

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 9:39 am

While I appreciate that those who've earned classifications from participating in competition might want to stand out, the NRA confuses things by having the marksmanship program that has nothing to do with competitions.
https://mqp.nra.org/

Different from the classifications and cards earned through competition.
http://competitions.nra.org/

With similar titles of Marksman, Expert, and Distinguished Expert.

Google "NRA Distinguished Expert" and even the NRA admits the confusion:
"One of the highest honors, and more difficult awards, that a smallbore rifle shooter can earn is the Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman Award. Not to be confused with the NRA Qualification Program's "Distinguished Expert," a program for starting shooters, or the Civilian Marksmanship's Service Rifle and Pistol "Distinguished," the NRA Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman Award is only available to smallbore rifle shooters who shoot "qualifying events" and place in the top 10% of the competition."

You would think they could come up with easily recognisable terms for each program.

Not having competed in any sanctioned event, and unlikely to unless I cross the border, I guess I'm forever a "tyro class" for sanctioned competition.

Struggling to add up results to earn my "Expert" badges in the Canadian SFC RTC program. And I might start tracking my NRA MQP standings. I should have been able to achieve Sharpshooter Bar-7 or Bar-8 by now.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by mikemyers on 11/29/2017, 10:25 am

LenV wrote:.....An individual that has never shot in a match or is just beginning and has not fired 360 rounds is officially considered "unclassified"....

If this was in the sign-up page, I missed it.  Maybe it could be made a bit more clear.  Not knowing what to do, I just used "?".


Edit: Now corrected.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Magload on 11/29/2017, 10:37 am

Ok maybe I should have put Unclass down but in the early 80s I qualified as US Navy Expert shooting a 45 that I could shake a hear the barrel rattle when in battery and am still petty proud of that.  No training and very little practice maybe a couple hundred rounds and now get on the line and try to qualify.  Petty big accomplishment for not shoot a pistol before unless you count the plastic dart guns we played with as a kid and I was good with them.    I have not shot my first official match yet and won't till I can shoot Expert again.  Have lost a lot in 35 years don't remember shaking this bad back then or the arm being this weak.  I know you guys don't care what I would score now days at a match but I do.  Don
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Jon Eulette on 11/29/2017, 11:00 am

Don,
Huge difference between 'military expert' and NRA Precision Pistol Expert. Being an Army veteran I qualified 'expert' everytime I qualified with the pistol. Wasn't too difficult. Getting your NRA Expert is a lot of work in comparison. Many shooters never make it to that level. I think you should get out there and compete 'now' ;l)
You learn a lot about yourself in competition compared to practice. Not many people show up and shoot close to their practice scores when first competing. Gotta learn tge game under match conditions. So you are really limiting yourself on range time and camaraderie by staying home instead of going to the local BE match. Nothing wrong with being a 'marksman'.....I was one once.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by mikemyers on 11/29/2017, 11:12 am

I doubt this belongs here, although I think it's useful advice.  I've gone to the matches at the local range, but not to "compete".  I just wanted to go through them to see what it was like, knowing that I would at least get a lot of practice, and hoping I would learn new things.  

I think a lot of people (including a relative of mine) don't want to compete until they are "good enough", but what I've learned is the best way to get "good enough" is by adding competition to all the other things I do.


Back to what is appropriate here - when I first joined this forum, I din't know enough about the NRA classification to answer the question.  It's one of those things that becomes "obvious", later on.  I almost selected "marksman" as that sounded to me like what beginners might be, but I gave up - thus, the "?".

This thread is a good idea - I doubt I'm the only one who didn't answer "correctly" because of not knowing what to select.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Wobbley on 11/29/2017, 2:22 pm

I’ve competed in Pistol matches and shot a marksman score.  But these were many years ago.  I do want to start again but am now working on equipment and reloading. 

I have shot in highpower rifle matches and made Distinguished Rifleman, Presidents 100, HM both with the match rifle and Service rifle (M14).  So I’ve been around big matches.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by robert84010 on 11/29/2017, 3:33 pm

Making HM and Distinguished with the M14, now that is a marksman anyway you want to slice it. That is saying something. Not trying to stray from your point LenV.

I think a lot of emphasis changed after the rules changed from being issued ammunition for an EIC match. Back then you had no control over ammo so the emphasis would be more on learning how to shoot whatever was given to everybody. Everyone having to shoot issue ammo, kept it from becoming an ammo race, not that ammo separates the match winner from last place. Even someone that wants to measure brass would eventually see it's the marksmanship that matters.


Last edited by robert84010 on 11/29/2017, 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by robert84010 on 11/29/2017, 3:42 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Don,
Huge difference between 'military expert' and NRA Precision Pistol Expert. Being an Army veteran I qualified 'expert' everytime I qualified with the pistol. Wasn't too difficult. Getting your NRA Expert is a lot of work in comparison. Many shooters never make it to that level. I think you should get out there and compete 'now' ;l)
You learn a lot about yourself in competition compared to practice. Not many people show up and shoot close to their practice scores when first competing. Gotta learn tge game under match conditions. So you are really limiting yourself on range time and camaraderie by staying home instead of going to the local BE match. Nothing wrong with being a 'marksman'.....I was one once.
Jon
"once" I'm sure means your first match.

Putting NRA expert in another context. I was NRA expert when I distinguished, friggin' still am, but in the 15 qual courses I shot after that I never dropped a single point. Even cleaned it one handed once (all single action) to show the non believers what a distinguished pistol shot with an issue 92fs and M882 can do.


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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by IT1 Wes on 11/29/2017, 3:45 pm

When a person registers on BullseyeL, the default classification is, "Marksman." Perhaps the default classification should be, "Unclassified." I will have to change mine manually.

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 3:57 pm

I read the NRA rulebook (rule 19.6) at first found it confusing about classification in different types of competition. Turns out though it was just that if you sstart something new, the highest of all your classifications will be your classification in a new type of competition (why don't they use an easy term like "discipline"?) until you record scores in the new type of competition.
But to add a question:
If you shoot the 22 and CF portions of a 2700 with ISSF approved equipment, couldn't the scores be used for classification in both pistol and international pistol (standard and CF)?

http://pistol-competition.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

(it's a curse that I get so involved in reading and understanding rulebooks)
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by robert84010 on 11/29/2017, 4:03 pm

I don't think so because the conventional pistol and international pistol events are different courses of fire. There is no such thing as international 2700 match. Int'l Standard pistol is based off of NRA conventional but CF is entirely different. ISSF classifications I believe have different percentages than NRA do for the differently named groups.

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by desben on 11/29/2017, 4:16 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:Not having competed in any sanctioned event, and unlikely to unless I cross the border, I guess I'm forever a "tyro class" for sanctioned competition.

Hi, there are many sanctioned matches less than 2 hours away from where you are. Ottawa, Joliette, Trois-Rivières and Granby are a few that come to mind. They will be sanctioned by the Shooting Federation of Canada (SFC) and they will let you earn your classification, just as valid as the NRA in the States. I'm not talking about the RTS program, but true NRA-rules matches (Canadian 1800) or ISSF standard pistol and centerfire. Come out and compete!
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 4:25 pm

robert84010 wrote:I don't think so because the conventional pistol and international pistol events are different courses of fire. There is no such thing as international 2700 match. Int'l Standard pistol is based off of NRA conventional but CF is entirely different. ISSF classifications I believe have different percentages than NRA do for the differently named groups.
Yeah, I forgot the course of fire might vary slightly and of course the distances are different.
Nevermind!
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 4:33 pm

desben wrote:Hi, there are many sanctioned matches less than 2 hours away from where you are. Ottawa, Joliette, Trois-Rivières and Granby are a few that come to mind. They will be sanctioned by the Shooting Federation of Canada (SFC) and they will let you earn your classification, just as valid as the NRA in the States. I'm not talking about the RTS program, but true NRA-rules matches (Canadian 1800) or ISSF standard pistol and centerfire. Come out and compete!
Didn't know there was a Canadian 1800. 
Where do I find the calendars for the events? SFC-FTC site shows LSBA events, but not locations, for 2018. And the notice for one seems to indicate I'd need to join the Ontario federation to compete.
It would SO NICE if the national and provincial/state federations would find a way to cooperate on communicating things like competition schedules.
It seems like a daunting task just to find out when and where things are happening.
Let's move Canadian discussion to a new thread.

New thread here: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8676-canadian-competitions-and-classification


Last edited by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Aprilian on 11/29/2017, 4:48 pm

I love discussions like this that eventually get to someone posting the rule book. Laughing   Both the term Unclassified and Tyro seem to refer to competitors at a match, not those considering a match in the unspecified future.
Should their title then be "future competitor"?

19.2 Unclassified Competitor - Is a competitor who does not have a current NRA Pistol Classification, either regular or temporary by Score Record Book (Rule 19.14), nor an “Assigned Classification” (Rule 19.6). Such competitor shall complete in the Master Class. 

19.3 Tyro Competitors - Are competitors who have not previously fired in organized, civilian, police or military pistol competitions, regardless of the course of fire composing such matches. Any tournament sponsor may include in their program a prize of award(s) for the Tyro Class.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by robert84010 on 11/29/2017, 4:48 pm

slartybartfast,
If there are no 1800 matches near you or their schedule  does not work I would recommend you take advantage of PPC 1500 matches there. I remember there being a big range in Dryden, Ontario that holds matches and maybe even the Nationals. Fantastic fundamental builder that not many civilians can shoot down here. Marksmanship based, not speed based organized competition is what it is all about. The tangfoglio you've mentioned would be fine for that course.

https://www.cpca-ppc.org/match%20notices%20and%20brochures

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by joy2shoot on 11/29/2017, 4:51 pm

Ok, I am confused.  When I first started NRA Precision Pistol I was told I had to put Master on my scorecard until I got an official classification from the NRA.  Was I a victim of some kind of inside joke?

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Aprilian on 11/29/2017, 4:52 pm

no, see 19.2 above
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by joy2shoot on 11/29/2017, 4:55 pm

Thanks Aprilian

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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 4:56 pm

Aprilian wrote:Should their title then be "future competitor"?

In other sports and activities, the term would be NOOB.
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by Slartybartfast on 11/29/2017, 5:00 pm

robert84010 wrote:I remember there being a big range in Dryden, Ontario that holds matches and maybe even the Nationals. 
Great idea! That's only a 22hr drive from home.  lol!

Seems no affiliated clubs east of Ontario. Looks like an opportunity/need to expand the sport...
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Re: What is a Marksman?

Post by LenV on 11/29/2017, 5:01 pm

joy2shoot wrote:Ok, I am confused.  When I first started NRA Precision Pistol I was told I had to put Master on my scorecard until I got an official classification from the NRA.  Was I a victim of some kind of inside joke?
Not a victim. Everyone that does not have a classification has to shoot UNC-Master for the first match. Then you can use your temporary classification you established for the next match (If you recorded it properly). This stops a great Newbie from coming in and tearing up the Marksman class. In a small match you will be put in with the Masters. In larger matches with enough new shooters you may have a separate bracket for UNC-Masters.

Len
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Re: What is a Marksman?

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