Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

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Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by zanemoseley on 12/20/2017, 9:27 am

First topic message reminder :

Me and a buddy got a 3 month pass at a local indoor range (25 yards and roughly a dozen bays) so that we can practice in the cold weather, typically shoot at an outdoor 50 yard range. We've both noticed after leaving we have a sweet taste in the back of our throat & sinus that lasts for 2-3 hours. The range is less than 10 years old and does have ventilation, there is a vent behind each shooter that blows downrange, there is a swinging entry door that is fairly difficult to open (meaning there is some positive pressure in the range). It kind of seems like they have pressure built but not enough volume. When there are a few people shooting in the range you can see the smoke in the air when looking down range. From reading it appears the sweet taste comes from lead. Shooting 45 is a real smoke fest, I've been sticking with 22lr for my last couple visits. 

So do you guys experience the same thing? Has it made your lead levels rise in your blood tests? Aside from looking like a goober and wearing a mask have you found anything to help?

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by gregbenner on 12/21/2017, 10:44 am

I shoot daily at the local indoor range, my blood lead reading the first time I checked it last year was 27. That's too high for a child, marginally OK for a senior citizen like me. I started taking a couple of over-the-counter pills which cleans the body of heavy metals. 

My last blood test, six weeks ago, showed significant drop from 27 to 18.  Modified citrus pectin, and alpha lipoic acid.  The local gunsmith said his doctor gave him a prescription.

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/22/2017, 4:25 pm

My home range delivers the same "taste" and had me up to 40ish blood lead levels when I used that range more.

I discovered the D-Lead brand of soap and avoided that range and I'm down to 13.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Doug Tiedt on 12/25/2017, 1:36 pm

Make washing your hands after shooting a part of your post shooting process.  Simplest (and easiest) thing you can do you to maintain your health.  Some of my shooting buddies and I will remind each other if we noticed someone skipped it.

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Mike38 on 12/25/2017, 4:16 pm

Kind of on topic..... I normally train on Saturday mornings ~8:00am, as there is never anyone present until I leave around 10:00. Occasionally I add a Sunday morning ~8:00am. Every time I go on Sunday, there is a guy and his two sons just finishing their session. They always sweep the floor of the entire range, with the ventilation off. While everyone appreciates the floor getting swept good at least weekly, I very much want to say something to him about lead dust on the floor, especially with his early teen sons breathing it. You can literally see a cloud of dust floating in the air while they are sweeping. I leave the area while they sweep, and wait 15-20 minutes before entering again. I'm not much of a "people person" so I don't know how to politely tell the guy he's killing his sons. Maybe I should be brutally honest and just tell him?
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Aprilian on 12/25/2017, 5:30 pm

Doug Tiedt wrote:Make washing your hands after shooting a part of your post shooting process.  Simplest (and easiest) thing you can do you to maintain your health.  Some of my shooting buddies and I will remind each other if we noticed someone skipped it.
I now carry a scrub brush in my range bag to get everything off my fingers.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Wobbley on 12/25/2017, 6:13 pm

Mike38 wrote:Kind of on topic..... I normally train on Saturday mornings ~8:00am, as there is never anyone present until I leave around 10:00. Occasionally I add a Sunday morning ~8:00am. Every time I go on Sunday, there is a guy and his two sons just finishing their session. They always sweep the floor of the entire range, with the ventilation off. While everyone appreciates the floor getting swept good at least weekly, I very much want to say something to him about lead dust on the floor, especially with his early teen sons breathing it. You can literally see a cloud of dust floating in the air while they are sweeping. I leave the area while they sweep, and wait 15-20 minutes before entering again. I'm not much of a "people person" so I don't know how to politely tell the guy he's killing his sons. Maybe I should be brutally honest and just tell him?

I’d be honest, or bring two masks one for each. May cost you $$ but the good karma is priceless.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by estuck on 12/26/2017, 11:33 am

It's interesting that the topic of shutting down a range came up. When I was diagnosed, my doctor reported it to the health department as required. This resulted in a phone call from them, and a lengthy series of questions about where I was getting the exposure. They seemed more concerned if there were small children in the home. They were actually helpful by providing information for shooters. However the State got involved later and were persistently calling. When I finally agreed to talk to them, they wanted to know the location of all the ranges I was shooting on. (I shoot in an indoor traveling league)They even wanted addresses. I refused to answer their questions. When my levels went up again slightly, they started calling again. I do not want to see any private clubs investigated. I personally think it is each shooters responsibility to be educated,about possible lead exposure and take their own precautions.

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by ChipEck on 12/26/2017, 1:31 pm

+1

Chip
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Multiracer on 12/26/2017, 7:18 pm

After reading this thread I did some poking around the interweb in search of a supply of heavy metal soap.
Turns out the gun people are overpriced, the stained glass guys are a bit better but if you get into the industrial arena the price drops considerably. Comes packaged every way you can think of from little squeeze tubes to 55 gallon drums.
I ended up purchasing the soap for almost all heavy metals from McMaster Carr. Claims its red too ! Twisted Evil

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by mikemyers on 12/26/2017, 9:51 pm

estuck wrote:.....However the State got involved later and were persistently calling. When I finally agreed to talk to them, they wanted to know the location of all the ranges I was shooting on. ......They even wanted addresses. I refused to answer their questions. When my levels went up again slightly, they started calling again......
I'm not sure what to make of this.  On the one hand, I wouldn't give them that information either, but I would find a way to inform the people in charge at the range.

The outdoor range I shoot at has fans behind the shooters.  I always wondered why.  Maybe this is the reason.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by zanemoseley on 12/26/2017, 11:38 pm

I don't want to see ranges shut down but I have to wonder when indoor ranges get set up do they have to pass any standards before opening? Sounds like they don't have regular checks once open, sure seems like they should. For us grown adults its a respiratory inconvenience or minor health issue but what happens when a 10 year old goes with his father regularly to an improperly ventilated range, sorry kid I guess you get to live with an undeveloped brain.

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The red soap

Post by Multiracer on 12/27/2017, 4:30 pm

McMaster Carr. $4.62 centavos



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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Aprilian on 12/27/2017, 4:57 pm

Did it include free shipping?

I've been using the LeadOff foaming soap as it packs in my ammo bag easier and has a less industrial smell (I also carry a scrub brush).   I wish I could find a test between the two products.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Multiracer on 12/27/2017, 5:03 pm

No, shipping was only a few dollars because I have a warehouse 90 miles from me.
I bought two bottles, and some other items for my shop so I feel the soap was a gift via my business.
Anything we can do to reduce the exposure I guess is a step in the right direction.

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by bdutton on 12/31/2017, 7:45 am

I've scanned the posts here and most people agree that this is due to positive pressure which may be due to either miss-matched intake/out-take fans or clogged filters.

Not sure if this was suggested or not but how about a friendly yet concerned conversation with the owner/operator that you may be experiencing lead exposure due to the ventilation.  If I were the owner of a public access range, I would want to get that fixed asap.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Aprilian on 12/31/2017, 8:18 am

I had just that conversation at the range with an employee yesterday, after shooting.  I could see the smoke from bullet lube linger in the stall - unusual for that location.  The impression I got was that the employee knew that this time of year (winter, over the holidays) that the filters clogged faster due to higher usage.   Even though I didn't specifically ask him, as a professional in the building maintenance field, I quickly realized their filters are replaced on a calendar basis - not on # of shooters, # of rounds or hours of operation.    

If you are having a conversation with the owner of your range, perhaps inquire whether they follow a number of shooters or calendar-based filter replacement schedule.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by estuck on 12/31/2017, 8:43 am

Unfortunately most of the indoor ranges I shoot at are small private "Sportsman" clubs that have very little money to spend on ventilation. Most of what you see are systems cobbled together by some of the members. I don't believe any of them would pass an inspection. However I want to continue to support these clubs, so I try to educate other shooters during range down time. I am seeing more shooters start to use respirators and de-lead wipes. I encourage many to visit this forum as I have found some great advice on this subject.

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by jagbender on 1/4/2018, 3:52 pm

mikemyers wrote:Does lead that gets into the body ever go away, or is there "forever"?

Yes but it takes time 
I had a high lead level when I shot indoor leagues in Michigan   My level was 35 µg/dL
That was 12 years ago.  Normal now 

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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by mikemyers on 1/5/2018, 6:10 am

Thanks - 25 years ago I did things that I didn't understand that I shouldn't be doing them.  I guess from what you wrote, in 25 years, it should no longer be an issue.
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Re: Poor Ventilation In Indoor Range

Post by Jon Math on 1/5/2018, 9:37 am

I shoot at a really well maintained range-when the shooters before me turn the system on!  I do shoot at a couple of others in the league I shoot with let’s just say less than ideal air quality and I see a fair number of people shooting at those wearing half face respirators.  I’m sure I don’t want to look and sound like Darth Vader when I shoot, but I’m at the point that I may add the mask to my kit when I travel.

I do see more women, especially child bearing aged women, wearing masks much more often than men. Heavy metals are nothing to fool with, that protection makes a lot of sense especially for them— but for all of us really.
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