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semiwad cutter vs. JHP

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fpk
Jon Eulette
joy2shoot
STEVE SAMELAK
SMBeyer
john bickar
weber1b
Chris Miceli
zanemoseley
james r chapman
tvphotog
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semiwad cutter vs. JHP Empty semiwad cutter vs. JHP

Post by tvphotog Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:36 pm

Some of the guys who shoot bullseye at the club have told me that, with the same manufacturer (I've been buying from Zero), the JHP is more accurate than the semiwad cutter. What's the opinion here?

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semiwad cutter vs. JHP Empty Re: semiwad cutter vs. JHP

Post by james r chapman Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:22 pm

Generally, yes.
But great scores are shot everyday with swc bullets.
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Post by zanemoseley Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:23 pm

Imo, until you get to master and shooting for high master you won't benefit enough from the JHP to justify the extra expense and barrel wear. And plenty of people have made HM on lead SWC.

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Post by Chris Miceli Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:33 pm

Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.

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Post by weber1b Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:38 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
The X ring doesn't know what the bullet looks like.

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Post by john bickar Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:46 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.

Rolling Eyes

Lead sent downrange is better than JHP sitting at home.

(Too soon? Hope the shoulder heals quickly.)
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Post by zanemoseley Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:15 pm

weber1b wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
The X ring doesn't know what the bullet looks like.

Maybe I only shot a 100-9x last weekend because I was shooting lead... Hmmmmm

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Post by SMBeyer Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
My cast bullets are just as pretty!
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Post by Chris Miceli Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:48 pm

weber1b wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
The X ring doesn't know what the bullet looks like.

You would be Wrong

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Post by Chris Miceli Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:49 pm

john bickar wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.

Rolling Eyes

Lead sent downrange is better than JHP sitting at home.

(Too soon? Hope the shoulder heals quickly.)

I can have someone else raise my arm, pretty big deal Wink in 6 months I’ll be able to lift a gun

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Post by Chris Miceli Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:50 pm

zanemoseley wrote:
weber1b wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
The X ring doesn't know what the bullet looks like.

Maybe I only shot a 100-9x last weekend because I was shooting lead... Hmmmmm
Yes would of been 10x with jhp

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Post by Chris Miceli Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:51 pm

SMBeyer wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:Jhp only, life is too short to shoot ugly bullets.
My cast bullets are just as pretty!

Lies

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:22 pm

Most the time the X-ring only waves as my bullets pass by Embarassed
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Post by joy2shoot Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:37 pm

tvphotog, I am not a ballistics expert, but at 50 yards, bullet weight consistency is important so your groups do not open up.  Of the three types of bullets we use, JHP, cast lead and swaged lead, my own measurements showed me that JHP and swaged lead were about equal in consistency.  Whereas cast lead was not.  But if your 50 yard group size is the 6 ring, then one would be hard pressed to see this difference.  Shooters much better than me who shoot cast lead generally inspect and weigh their bullets and group them by weight to achieve that weight consistency.  Using JHP or swaged can help you avoid the weighing and sorting.  For me, I shoot ugly swaged lead (see photo) for 50 yards.
semiwad cutter vs. JHP Swaged10

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Post by joy2shoot Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:54 pm

I found these two photos of targets I shot in 2700 matches (i.e. not practice).  The top one was shot using cast lead that was not weighed and sorted.  You can see there are five holes (after three slow fires) in the 6 ring at 6 o'clock.  After discussing with some HMs, we concluded this was due to varying bullet weights.  The next target was shot with swaged lead.
semiwad cutter vs. JHP Cast10
semiwad cutter vs. JHP Swaged11

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Post by john bickar Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:01 pm

Sorry, but 6s are due to the loose nut on the trigger, not swaged vs. cast lead.
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Post by zanemoseley Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:22 pm

I agree with John, often we're too quick to look for reasons for poor scores outside of ourselves, its easier to blame equipment or ammo. I see your 6's were right next to pasters covering other shots. If weight deviation was the problem you would have likely had shots above the target as well not just below it.

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Post by Jon Eulette Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:43 pm

In my experience varying weight bullets will still hold 10 ring! Crappy reloads that are poorly crimped will scatter them all over the target. Swaged bullets that lead the bore slightly will still hold 1.5” at 50 yds. I’ve shot many SF targets with 6-7x’s at 50 yds with lswc bullets. The guy pulling the trigger has more effect on the group than the gun or the ammo. Obviously you need a decent gun and decent ammunition. I spend lots of time building guns and as little time reloading as possible. I spend little effort on my reloads and still get great results with lead bullets. I have a stockpile of jhp and only use them to test guns that are built for them. I love lead!
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Post by fpk Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:47 pm

Generally, anything outside of the 9 ring is the shooter, and in the 9 ring is likely the barrel/bushing/lockup, in the 10 ring *might* be the bullets and likely is load. Bullets would need to have voids or be visibly deformed to make some other difference. I can attest to this, as my cast go in 10 or better on call, but only after I have spent the last year and a half learning the above.

Now a loose scope mount... that could be all over the paper (or off). Check you scope mount before every match!

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Post by john bickar Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:34 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I love lead!
Me too, but it took me a lot of years to learn that you're not supposed to lick the bullets.

San Mateo County Public Health Department still gives me a call once a year or so...
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semiwad cutter vs. JHP Empty Re: semiwad cutter vs. JHP

Post by joy2shoot Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:03 am

zanemoseley wrote:... I see your 6's were right next to pasters covering other shots....
Hence my reference to five holes.

The reason we concluded bullet weight is because in each case my POA and POI were right on from a windage perspective but not elevation.
What I called for those five shots => two 9 o'clocks in the 10 ring, two in the X, and one 3 o'clock in the 9 ring
What happened => two 9 o'clocks in the 6 ring, two in the 6 ring, and one 3 o'clock in the 6 ring

All the other shots you see, POA = POI.

And my POA not = POI has been reduced since switching to swaged.

And yes, I agree that the person pulling the trigger has more effect than ammo, which is why I drill/train/practice as often as I can and I work at calling my shots so that I can properly diagnose issues.

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Post by PhillySoldier Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:33 am

It wasnt semiwad cutters but I did just run some ransom rest tests comparing FMJ's to JHP's. The JHP's came out on top but it wasnt by much; the avg difference was 0.1"

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Post by zanemoseley Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:08 am

joy2shoot wrote:
zanemoseley wrote:... I see your 6's were right next to pasters covering other shots....
Hence my reference to five holes.

The reason we concluded bullet weight is because in each case my POA and POI were right on from a windage perspective but not elevation.
What I called for those five shots => two 9 o'clocks in the 10 ring, two in the X, and one 3 o'clock in the 9 ring
What happened => two 9 o'clocks in the 6 ring, two in the 6 ring, and one 3 o'clock in the 6 ring

All the other shots you see, POA = POI.

And my POA not = POI has been reduced since switching to swaged.

And yes, I agree that the person pulling the trigger has more effect than ammo, which is why I drill/train/practice as often as I can and I work at calling my shots so that I can properly diagnose issues.
Not trying to be argumentative but put that same load in a ransom rest, bet it won't be 1/10 of the vertical stringing you have in the picture.

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Post by Chris Miceli Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:11 am

PhillySoldier wrote:It wasnt semiwad cutters but I did just run some ransom rest tests comparing FMJ's to JHP's. The JHP's came out on top but it wasnt by much; the avg difference was 0.1"
this seems false. you talking 45 or 9mm?

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Post by PhillySoldier Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
PhillySoldier wrote:It wasnt semiwad cutters but I did just run some ransom rest tests comparing FMJ's to JHP's. The JHP's came out on top but it wasnt by much; the avg difference was 0.1"
this seems false. you talking 45 or 9mm?

This was 9mm.

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