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Tight Grip = Accuracy??

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CR10X
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Tight Grip = Accuracy?? Empty Tight Grip = Accuracy??

Post by lanjo 10/21/2018, 10:35 pm

Hi All,

I was wondering if a really tight grip on a pistol translates to accuracy?  All of the military shooters talk about squeezing the water out of their 1911 when they shoot.  Does this really lead to accuracy over say a firm, but not excessive grip?  I can see from a combat standpoint why one would want have a really tight grip on a pistol (prevent your opponent from striping it from you), but is it really necessary for accuracy?

Best,

Joe

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Post by Jon Eulette 10/21/2018, 11:00 pm

Grip must be consistent no matter how hard you squeeze. Way back I shot with a medium tensioned grip with only front strap and back strap pressure; I shot well. Now that I’m older and have arthritis I found that I needed to grip with my fingers and thumb. I now use very firm grip. I wish I would’ve done it way back. I find I have better feel and can call my shots better. I recommend a firm grip.
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Post by 1joel1 10/22/2018, 9:11 am

Jon, what about gripping a non-1911 pistol like the .22s with ergo grips? I tend to hold fairly loose as the firm grip doesn't effect cycling like on the .45.

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Post by bruce martindale 10/22/2018, 9:37 am

3 bears approach, not too tight, not too loose but just right. 

Too tight and the trigger finger locks up. You lose fine motor control. Try it, make a fist and see how smoothly you can move your finger. You just made a 3 lb trigger into 20. Now ease your fingers and see how fluid your trigger finger is. But this grip is fussy and subject to trigger induced motion or motion from fingertip pressure. 

So this is (one of ) my personal struggles with the 45. Easy grip gets me more x s but also the interstring spazz that spoils it. 

Thoughts?

Do large euro grips prevent gripping too tight?

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Post by Wobbley 10/22/2018, 10:04 am

bruce martindale wrote:3 bears approach, not too tight, not too loose but just right

Do large euro grips prevent gripping too tight?
IMO, the Euro grips feel good but for 45 at least it puts the grip pressure on the gun in the wrong place.  I grip my slab sides mostly on the  front and rear straps with the sides just touching. I use a very firm grip.  The Euro grips I tried on my Air pistol just don’t get the same grip pressure and I find I can’t control the recoil of the 45.
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Post by Jon Eulette 10/22/2018, 10:05 am

Unfortunately 99% of euro grips do not fit our hands correctly. There is not a US made euro grip that is made correctly. So when we grip them firm I think they have a tendency to be more unforgiving. I think a medium grip pressure has always worked better for me unless the grip was perfect for my hand ( I have custom Morini’s). 1911’s and euros are a mistake. To shoot the 45 well does require a firmer grip to control it. You can shoot well with a looser grip if consistent but will get the bigger flyers!
Jon
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Post by Allgoodhits 10/22/2018, 11:36 am

Tighter the grip the tighter the group, provided you do not cause tremble or lose the trigger finger feel.

The heavier (or worse) the trigger the tighter the grip.

The lighter the gun the heavier the grip.

The heavier the recoil the tighter the grip.

If the hand shifts on the gun during the firing sequence the grip was not firm enough.

Without the above considerations it is difficult to be consistent.

It used to be said as tight as a firm handshake. It used to be said as you would grip a hammer. 20-70 years ago, people understood that. Today, handshakes are not what they used to be, and most folks have probably never driven a 16 penny nail into an oak board.

I like the hammer analogy best. However a tennis racket grip is also good. With the hammer, it is difficult to drive nail into oak without a firm grip. Two primary reasons. One oak is hard and one must swing the hammer pretty hard. Two, you rarely hit the nail head dead center with the dead center of the hammer head, thus the handle wants to twist or torque in your hand. This either causes a "poor hit" with a glancing to one side or the other, and, or bends the nail.  A very firm grip help distribute the force where desired even with a less than perfect impact. A firm grip, can help conceal that which would have been a poor (shot) hit. Of course, there are many folks who do not grip real firm. My guess is that their technique is refined such that it is not "as" critical for them.

So how tight is tight, how firm is firm? Such that you do not "need" to regrip between each shot. At least start with that, IMO.
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Post by jmdavis 10/22/2018, 12:40 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Unfortunately 99% of euro grips do not fit our hands correctly. There is not a US made euro grip that is made correctly. So when we grip them firm I think they have a tendency to be more unforgiving. I think a medium grip pressure has always worked better for me unless the grip was perfect for my hand ( I have custom Morini’s). 1911’s and euros are a mistake. To shoot the 45 well does require a firmer grip to control it. You can shoot well with a looser grip if consistent but will get the bigger flyers!
Jon

The Morinis on my LP10 fit my hand with less work than any other grip. For me, Rinks were second. 

When I switched to shooting a conversion with slabs my consistency improved. Recently I have found myself not gripping it as tight has I had previously and as Jon noted the flyers were wider. Same with the 45. 

I think there's a reason why so many really good shooters shoot slab grips.
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Post by bruce martindale 10/22/2018, 12:44 pm

All good stuff!  Been trying to get folks to talk about these details.

I hear some use pressure from all fingers but I find the Pinkie tends to 
Dump shots. What are your thoughts there? Certainly a high up grip is best but there are differences. My recent study indicated a grip mostly from thumb and middle finger around the frame and less pressure from other fingers and with no fingertips at all was working well with 45 But I am inconsistent. I know I need to dryfire, and I have a rika

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Post by LenV 10/22/2018, 12:46 pm

This is 40+ year old advice that was given to me by AMU instructors. When the discussion came up about how hard to grip the 1911 we (the newbies) were told to grip the pistol and increase pressure until the pistol started to tremble then decrease until the trembling stopped. In other words we were advised to grip it as hard as we could without going too far.Some interesting side effects are you build a fantastic grip after 40+ years and it gets easier to grip harder then you ever did when you first started shooting. I no longer increase pressure to the trembling point. After this many years I know when I am getting to that point and stop. That was the long answer. Short answer is grip it hard.

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Post by Jon Eulette 10/22/2018, 1:14 pm

Grip changes take a while to become ingrained. I found I needed more thumb pressure to get rid of 1 o’clock group shift with the 45. Took 6 months of dry fire and range practice to make it natural. Old habits and muscle memory take time to change. Grip is crucial to great 45 scores. 
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Post by bruce martindale 10/22/2018, 1:41 pm

My other self debate was an inline grip which puts the trigger at midpad vs a zins grip that puts it at the crease. Been on the latter for 6 months now and it hasn't been pretty. Barrel Inline with arm bones gives me contol over the dot during the full length of pull and shows tighter holds on the rika

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Post by Jack H 10/22/2018, 1:51 pm

bruce martindale wrote:All good stuff!  Been trying to get folks to talk about these details.

I hear some use pressure from all fingers but I find the Pinkie tends to 
Dump shots. What are your thoughts there? Certainly a high up grip is best but there are differences. My recent study indicated a grip mostly from thumb and middle finger around the frame and less pressure from other fingers and with no fingertips at all was working well with 45 But I am inconsistent. I know I need to dryfire, and I have a rika

I have this crazy idea that adequate pressure from the ring finger is directed (at least on my hand) toward the middle of the back of the palm.  Halfway on the backstrap of the pistol.  Thus a good triangular three point grip.  Plus I think the muscles of the forearm firm the wrist at the same time.
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Post by Allgoodhits 10/22/2018, 3:17 pm

Suffice it to say Tony Robbins, the motivational speaker, may have it right. Do "something" if it got you a good result do it again. If what you tried didn't give a good result try something else.
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Post by daflorc 10/28/2018, 3:06 am

Grip pressure is without a doubt in my mind the single most elusive trick to shooting tight groups consistently. I sometimes will shoot two targets side by side with different grip pressure - the target which I shot with a lighter grip always shows larger groups, the target which I shot with a tight grip always shows smaller groups. This has held true in .22, 9mm, and 45acp for me. And when you think you're holding it tight - it probably isn't tight enough.

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Post by willnewton 10/28/2018, 6:52 am

Zins told us that the proper grip is achieved AFTER the gun is fired.  The hand has snugged up tight on the grip, the pistol has shifted to fit the grip, the wrist, arm, and shoulder have tension to manage recoil.

So now you establish that post shot grip BEFORE your first shot.

Also, your tremble from holding hard is probably smaller than your wobble from holding too loose. Trust that grip.  Smile
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Post by bruce martindale 10/28/2018, 9:39 am

Allgoodhits wrote:Suffice it to say Tony Robbins, the motivational speaker, may have it right. Do "something" if it got you a good result do it again. If what you tried didn't give a good result try something else.


Yes true dat , but... beware the false hope of getting good results from "bad" technique. I have had 9x rapid fire 45 targets from a medium to low tension grip, all that followed by a mid to low 90 score. Consistency was my main problem.  Match tension is a big player too. "Something" is certainly a good starting point though.

Your comment about increasing tension with trigger weight, with increased recoil, with heavier bullets, and lighter guns is spot on.

I tried the extremes recently and succeeded with a tigher grip on the 1911. Using the same grip tension l had with a 22 didnt work nor did the too tight method work for 22.

Interestingly in 45, zins or inline grip didn't seem to matter, at least not in the small samples l have. Consistency is the goal. Thanks all
.

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Post by CR10X 10/28/2018, 10:49 am

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of shooters do not consider the physiology of gripping the gun.  A lot of shooters (and golfers) seem to run into "trigger finger" issues because they are using the too much of the forefinger in the actual grip.  I would suggest getting the best pressure from the base of the thumb and the other 3 fingers of the gripping hand.  Do not try to grip with the forefinger and its knuckle area.  Just like in a golf grip, the strong hand thumb and forefinger are there for control or steadiness of the process, not major physical support.  Basically, grip firmly with the thumb base and last 3 fingers (including the pinkie for me) to achieve a stable grip, then just concentrate on the forefinger to get the trigger moving straight back.  Sometimes it takes a lot of work to separate this, because we've spent most of our life using tools that make us use all four fingers and thumb or (everything but the pinkie). 

CR

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Post by bruce martindale 10/28/2018, 11:30 am

CR, can you explain forefinger for me? Are you referring to the trigger finger or perhaps a part of it? Thanks

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Post by CR10X 10/28/2018, 12:54 pm

Yes, the trigger finger.  Some people seem to try and use the base of the finger, where it joins the hand / palm as part of gripping strength.  When that happens, there is a lot tension in the trigger finger and that will make operating the trigger difficult.  Basically, try to keep the base section of trigger finger (knuckle to next joint straight and the rest of the trigger finger clear of the gun, with just the first part (pad to first joint at your preference) touching the trigger.  Trigger finger moving only from second joint to the end to operate the trigger and staying clear of the grip / gun. You do not want the base part of the trigger finger moving or trying to move in sympathy with the trigger operation.  That will just put additional side pressure on the gun from the trigger operation.  A lot of shooters are doing that and not realizing it. 

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Post by john1644 11/7/2018, 6:50 pm

military teaches (prior to 1969)  a firm grip, not a strangle hold, on the 45.  The same goes for police
teaching, again prior to 1988............. heaven knows what they teach now.
Having a strangle hold on a 45 may cause the arm to quiver (shake) do to the rigid holding.
JUST A FIRM GRIP..........

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Post by RJP 12/8/2018, 8:33 pm

john1644 wrote:... heaven knows what they teach now.
Just keep pulling the trigger until you and your partner are out of ammo. 

Sight alignment and trigger control are not needed on a large target 7 yards away.

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Post by scheibenpistole 1/4/2019, 7:53 pm

There's a school of thought that grip pressure is commensurate to the recoil of the firearm. Furthermore, the reciprocation of the slide action comes into play, as does trigger weight.
With free pistol (yes, I know apples and oranges) I have found a light grip helps in releasing a light trigger ..,on the order of 10-20 grams.
Just trying to suggest that grip pressure is not an absolute, with a direct ratio correlation to group size.

Best Regards,
Jim
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Post by joy2shoot 1/4/2019, 10:23 pm

CR10X wrote:... try to keep the base section of trigger finger (knuckle to next joint straight and the rest of the trigger finger clear of the gun ...
I have actually taken sandpaper/Dremel to the slab/stock to remove material so that my trigger finger does not touch the gun at all except the trigger itself.  In the case of my Pardini, I had to remove more material than I typically do.  The 'fresh' area of the stock in the picture below is the area where material was removed.
Tight Grip = Accuracy?? Grip10

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Post by bruce martindale 1/5/2019, 2:59 pm

scheibenpistole wrote:
With free pistol (yes, I know apples and oranges) I have found a light grip helps in releasing a light trigger ..,on the order of 10-20 grams.


Best Regards,
Jim

Jim, have you tried firmer (a relative term) grip on the FP? It has helped me, l put up a 530 maybe 531 l don't recall  for a Silver at national level Sectionals last year, l am putting up 540s  indoors now

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