38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

I recently purchased Hammerli / SIG P240 in 38 SWC.  Thanks to timely forewarning by Bubba Blaster (A BIG THANK YOU!!) I learned not to use ammo based on Remington 148gr HBWC.  In preparation for procuring and loading ammo for above mentioned gun I'm soliciting opinions and information on dimensions of the 148 grain DEWC bullets - diameter (.357" versus .358") and length of the bullet.  And as well recommended sources for bullets.  At this point there are four of known to me sources: Bob's Bullets, Magnus, Meister and Hunters Supply.
AP

Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

Dave

Dcforman wrote:Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

Dave

Yeah?
Since it was pretty much designed for semi auto use.

And why just Remington?   Now the Remingtin ammo of today isn’t as good as the old stuff, but neither is much else.

james r chapman wrote:

Dcforman wrote:Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

Dave

Yeah?
Since it was pretty much designed for semi auto use.

Scratching my head on that one, as well.

And why is he calling it a .38 SWC, when semi-wadcutters will not work in it?

We have one guy here with a P240 and all he shoots in it are hollow based wadcutters.

Devil is in details as always - in my case SWC abbreviation is for Special WadCutter as opposed to Semi-WadCutter.  I hope it was obvious since in the same post I mentioned DEWC and HBWC type projectiles.  So I apologize for the confusion I created, and want to stress the detail that Double Ended Special WadCutter is the subject of my inquiry.

Next clarification and details - I shoot 148 grain HBWC ammunition that is based on Remington 148 Special WadCutter projectiles, and will be shooting such for very long time, hopefully.  The ammunition is my own as opposed to manufactured by Remington or anyone else.  I use it in two S&W Model 52 and Colt MK III Special Mid-Range guns.  No issues, and with 2.8 grains under the projectile it is a very accurate round. 

In difference with above mentioned guns, P240 has barrel with smaller ID.  I found article by Aussie shooter Alek Wadi with great information about this gun.   If anyone here can teach me how to attach file, I'll be happy to post this article.  Otherwise I'll be happy to email it on request, - it is about 4MB PDF file.  Pertaining synopsis from the article - P240 barrels lightened in addition to being of smaller ID.  Think of it as a handgun with fluted barrel.  Subsequently, using .361" HBWC projectile in "fluted" sub-.356" barrel requires a lot of attention from shooter.  In particular watching for leading and or skirt separation, or it will bulge.  In above mentioned article I found recommendation to use DEWC sized to to .357".  If I'm not mistaking, Hammerli / SIG even used to supply a mold for casting bullets at one point.

Lastly, I'm looking for information on length of DEWC projectiles, so I can finish design of expanders for Dillon, that will provide for full length of case expansion.  So far, I have one input - .575".  I would love to have confirmation - that is the last detail clarification from OP.
Thank you,
AP

Greetings,

Years ago, Speer published a chart showing the velocity/pressure changes in a pistol using progressively larger bullets.

The result was negligible.

Speer #3 manual, page 215.


Yes, there were some issues with HBWC bullets in the P240 bulging barrels. Haemmerli did specify certain lots of ammo not to use. After which, the new lots of HBWC were acceptable.

SIG-Haemmerli strongly advised against using hand loads and recommended only factory loaded ammo. (Usually HBWC)

I found some test targets fired at 50 yards via the Random Rest with a barrel I made for a fellow shooter. The barrel is 0.355" with 14 twist.

The ammo is part of Grandpa's stash when he shot on the Army Team back in the early 60's.




Cheers,

Dave

Weren’t the Pythons 14 and .355

I believe the standard SAAMI spec of barrels for .38 spl and .357 mag are.

Bore .355
Land .346

Same for 9mm and .38 Super

Obviously S&W didn’t read SAAMI Lol

Not exactly a DEWC, but .585" oal and .537" without the nose projection.



May be a place to start, anyway.

I drew up my own expander/funnel for them, but haven't made it yet...

http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles/P240.pdf

Here's the PDF that Alex talked about. The HBWC problem must have been serious because Hammerli  stopped making the P240 in 38 SPL and started making them in 32 S&W long instead.

Alex, 

Check your email, I just sent you photos of three different .38 DEWC. 

Thanks to the person who posted the PDF, interesting article. 

David

From the article:

SIG-Hammerli declined all responsibility when 
using other ammunition brands and reloaded 
ammunitions. The reason was that the extremely 
tight Hammerli .38-calibre barrel and thin barrel 
walls were made to attain the maximum target 
precision. Wadcutter commercial projectiles 
with a hollow base or oversized (above .357) 
for reloading were absolutely prescribed.

Was this a typo? Assume they meant "were absolutely forbidden"? Maybe I'm not understanding...

Dave

When I was shooting with the Mare Island Pistol Team in the 1970's, one of the shooters had a P240.  When we ordered ammo for it, we always got ammo cans filled with Remington Target.  He never had a problem with it.  I borrowed his pistol for the U.S. Team tryouts in Phoenix in 1983.  I didn't have any Remington and at that time I did not reload for the .38, so I bought some Federal target at Bob Chow's.  The pistol functioned as it should and I did not have any problems with it.

I believe, based on other references word "prescribed" is a bastardized version of "restricted".  Probably some auto-correct while typing.  I presume, it would be possible to contact Alek Wadi, - he is member of Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia, and frequent contributor to Australian & New Zealand Handgun Magazine.  For that matter I just sent off email to this organization asking for assistance with getting in touch with Mr. Wadi.  I will post update if there will be any progress.

Thank you to everyone who provided with information and feedback. 

Frank, thank you for the lesson on posting files, and taking time to discuss P240 in person.  I really enjoyed conversation, and look forward to future ones.   

David / DavidBullseye, thank you for the refreshment on my reading skills of other than digital micrometers, - I've been spoiled for quite some time.  But most importantly I appreciate the pictures you provided with different bullets, - I was looking for these variables.

David / fc60 - as always your encyclopedial knowledge is a guiding light, and I appreciate you sharing information collected over the years, and looks like for several generation of shooters in your family.

AP

Bubba Blaster wrote:http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles/P240.pdf

Here's the PDF that Alex talked about. The HBWC problem must have been serious because Hammerli  stopped making the P240 in 38 SPL and started making them in 32 S&W long instead.

I believe the primary reason was the trend to 32 S&W Long in ISSF competition.  With the adoption of the 32 anybody making a decent sized 22 could add mass and new magazine and create a worthy 32.  And there are a big number of advantages to the 32 besides reduced recoil. 

One thing I did note is that the twist is listed as 500mm.  This is 19.6 inches.  Yet the 18.4 twist of the S&W is too slow...

Greetings,

The P240's I have encountered measure as follows...

32 WadCutter---0.3125" groove diameter with a 400mm twist (15.75")

38 Special---0.354" groove diameter with 450mm twist (17.7")

SIG also made a 22lr P240 conversion for low cost training.

Also, I have two P240's in 32 WadCutter with lower serial numbers than the 38 Special P240's I see offered on Gun Broker. This suggests that all three calibers were produced concurrently as demand required.


Last, the thin barrel theory does not hold weight with me. Take a look at the S&W Model 52, Colt 38 National Match, Clark and Giles 38 Super Conversions to 38 Special, and the early 38 AMU and 38 Special Kit barrels. They all measure close to 1/2" outside diameter.

Even fat barrels will bulge with accidental firing.

The P240 is a very nice pistol. I keep hoping someone with publish a "HowTo" regarding setting the trigger from a dis-assembled condition. I was going to ask Larry Carter; but, as usual, I waited too long.

Cheers,

Dave

While being out for vacation, I've heard from author of the article, - to make long story short word "prescribed" in the article should have been "proscribed".  Author's original article draft was incorrectly edited by magazine's staff.  With author's permission to be obtained, I'll post entire email on the subject with explanation.
AP

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

The P240's I have encountered measure as follows...

32 WadCutter---0.3125" groove diameter with a 400mm twist (15.75")

Dave, I thought most of the Euro 32s had a larger diameter, closer to .3140?  Do you know if the other Hammerli barrels, e.g. the SP20 or 280 were similar?

Greetings Greg,

All SP-20 and 280 barrels I have measured gauge at 0.3135"-0.3140" groove diameter.

Cheers,

David

Here is excerpt from another email received earlier today from Alek Wadi regarding warning issued by Hammerli on P240.  He also provided link to the blog of one Warren, that has warning below as a part of the short essay regarding P240 - http://bullshooter.blogspot.com/2006/03/embarrassing-bulge.html
Same blogger posted some of the technical data for P240 - http://bullshooter.blogspot.com/2006/07/more-on-hammerli-p240.html you might find useful.  Lastly, Mr. Wadi offered to send a file with description of adjustments process for trigger, - I'll share information once it is received.  I will post next part of the email from Mr. Wadi regarding mistake in the article.
With that here is Hammerli's warning verbatim:
"Important Communication

On purchasing the SIG-Hammerli P240 pistol you have received a perfect firearm with regard to technical characteristics and quality, for which we guarantee as such.
Unfortunately it has been pointed out to us for some time already that the ammunition .38 Special Wadcutter, as well as hand-loaded ammunition, which is available for this firearm, can lead to damage of the pistol in rare cases. We are in no way responsible for these disadvantages which are in the form of retained shots (approx 1 case per 100 000 shots) or even of causing cracks in the barrel (approx 1 case in 1 000 000 shots) and thus cannot accept any liability for them.
Numerous tests and expertises which we had carried out immediately, clearly indicated that the firearm operates perfectly with regard to its design, material and manufacture and that the damages mentioned were only due to the use of faulty ammunition.
We have seen to it that the firm, Dynamit Nobel Ltd (Geco), assumes the responsibility for such ammunition produced and that this company also accepts the full liability. Our attempts in this direction with other ammunition producers have been unsuccessful up to the present.
Although we are convinced of the quality of the P240 pistol, we cannot however have an influence on the ammunition used by the marksman. It is with great regret that we have thus decided to discontinue the manufacture of this excellent and very popular pistol.
We hope to have made the situation clear with this communication. We would like to emphasize and draw your attention to the fact that, should you have sold or lent your pistol to anyone in the meantime, it is your responsibility to inform the present owner of this communication, since you are fully liable for any damage which may be incurred. It need hardly be said that we deeply regret such a development, especially as we have no influence on it. We feel obliged, however, to provide you with this information.
This communication only applies to .38 calibre Special Wadcutter and not to the .32 calibre Smith & Wesson Long and .22 calibre long rifle."



AP


P.S. I'm not sure if some of this thread should be moved to the new topic under "Equipment" section of the forum, as it more pertains to the P240 gun itself, as opposed to DEWC based ammunition for it, as OP was pertaining to it.  I hope, Admin folks can help with this.  AP

As previously promised and with permission from Mr. Wadi, below is the part of his email.  However prior to that, - Mr. Wadi sent me a link to some of his other articles - http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles.php

One of his articles pertains to the topic frequently discussed on this forum, as many of us dealing with eyesight issues as we are getting more mature.  I recommend reviewing it by those affected - http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles/astigmatism.pdf  I'll find pertaining threads, and post this link there as well.

" Good afternoon Alex, 

Thank you for attentively reading my paper on the Hammerli / SIG P240. 

Back to the P240, a beauty ! 
With due respect to you, I carefully re-read what I wrote about using Wad-cutter bullets for the P240. 


" ..... Soon after the P240 was marketed in .38 SPL WC, disturbing reports surfaced that the barrel may bulge when using both factory and reloaded Wadcutter ammunition." 

I then detail the Hammerli warning about using factory ammo : 

" .... As early as 1979, SIG-Hammerli wearily issued a warning to all shooters, advising to exclusively use Dynamit Nobel Ltd (GECO) factory .38 SPL WC ammunition with the manufacturing codes RV, SV, TV, KW and LW. All earlier GECO lots were not to be used."

I then explained the reason : 

"Wadcutter commercial projectiles with a hollow base or oversized (above .357) for reloading were absolutely prescribed...... " 

I do understand now your query.... absolutely miserable, terrible typo ..... I checked my draft sent to SSAA, and I wrote "proscribed" and not "prescribed" . 

Should read: 

 " Wadcutter commercial projectiles with a hollow base or oversized (above .357) for reloading were absolutely proscribed." 

I sincerely apologize for this terrible typo. The problem we do have with local magazines is that they do their own editing .... and publish without asking us to check the final product sent to printing again without us, the author, giving our "Imprimatur"  .... 

further down in the paper, i write : 

" ....Since 1982, I have been shooting my P240 .38 SPL WC with reloaded cartridges and homecast wadcutter bullets. I use an RCBS mould (ref82030) in 140-grain .38 WC lead bullet (bevel base) exclusively, with lube grooves and no crimp groove..... " 

I do understand now your puzzlement 


Again, apology ... you are right and the only one of my readers to have picked up this typo .... simply said, do not reload or use 38 spl WC (commercial, factory) hollow-base for your Hammerli / SIG P240. 


Kind regards 

Enjoy your holiday so far away and with your wife"

In my email to Mr. Wadi I highlighted that kudos for being attentive goes to my fellow forum member DCForman, as opposed to myself, as I took word of advice from Bubba Blaster about not using HBWCs.