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Post by mikemyers on 6/14/2019, 2:59 pm

The fellow I bought my S&W Model 17 from, Russ, wrote me about a fascinating way to analyze and keep track of. targets.  I could say more here, but the website explains it better:

www.targetshootingapp.com

I've been learning how to use it on my computer, but apparently it works on mobile devices as well.  It's not free, but it's reasonably priced.
I'm not sure what to think;

  • On the one hand, it's an interesting way to review and store information on targets.
  • On the other hand, advice given to me on this forum was to ignore previous targets, and concentrate on getting better.


If you've got a rainy day, with nothing to do, and enjoy tinkering with your computers and phones, it's still an interesting application.

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Post by Aprilian on 6/14/2019, 3:24 pm

When I used it (18 months ago) it was a PITA.  It put shots in totally different spots, then I had to drag them back.   I still have it on my phone, but find that I am far faster scoring targets by hand even if I have to pull out a template.  I'm not a "data addict" so only having photos of good targets suffices vs. having every target and historical records.
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Post by dronning on 6/14/2019, 3:26 pm

I'm sure it gets a little better with every release but I haven't used mine for over 2+ years.  It didn't do well when you have a knot of 5 or more shots.  There are several threads going all the way back to 2015 on it.

Before you post do a search.  
- Dave
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Post by Outthere on 6/14/2019, 4:10 pm

I had the same experiences as Aprilian and dronning.

Works like crap. Total waste of time.

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Post by mikemyers on 6/14/2019, 4:59 pm

Interesting; there are only two previous posts on this app, one from a year ago, and another from three years ago.  Most of the people responding then liked it.

Since then, it has been revised many times, and the "pro" features are now included in the base price.  

Not sure if I should have responded to an earlier post, when things have changed so much.  Apparently the developer very much wants to accommodate bullseye shooters, and has been incorporating changes submitted to him by people who have bought the app.

If I learned about it a year ago, I'd have loved it.  That's when I was keeping track of all my old targets, and mathematically calculating the CEP and other data I thought was useful.  Then I was politely told that I should ignore all my mistakes and only concentrate on what I'm doing right, and that looking over old targets wasn't so useful.  I've accepted that.  Now I just take photos of my targets, if it's something I want to think about later.

But, supposing I wanted to compare three different types of ammo for my Model 52.  It seems to me that this would very quickly give me comparative data on all of them, giving me a more accurate comparison, in less time, and with less work.  

Do I need it?   Absolutely not!!   But, it does seem interesting enough for me to buy and check out.  



So far, it hasn't done a perfect job of identifying all my shots, not that I've used it that much.  But it does allow me to put a "marker" over each hole, after which it does all the mathematics.  I have no idea if it will ever do everything automatically, but I can clearly remember all the work it took to calculate CEP and figure out where the center of the group was - and it can do this for any number of shots apparently.
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Post by zanemoseley on 6/14/2019, 5:06 pm

My advice is keep and hang your "blue ribbon" targets in your reloading room and trash the rest. Over analyzing your target isn't really going to help you improve.

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Post by mikemyers on 6/14/2019, 6:14 pm

There are two ways to improve - look for what you did right, and try to do it again, or look for what you did wrong, and avoid it in the future.
The experts in this forum agree with you, ignore the bad stuff.
My whole life I've done the opposite - figure out my mistakes, and stop making them.

*IF* I had a coach, helping me do things right, that would be awesome.  But I don't.  
I try different things, and if they help (such as so many of Brian Zins videos) I blindly adopt them.
Still, I'll shoot differently between different targets, to see if something is helping, or hurting.  

I disagree with the last thing you wrote.  If/when I can identify something I'm doing wrong, and avoid it, my shooting has always improved.

Even so, I'm just an amateur, doing this because I enjoy doing so.  If I had a coach, someone who has already proved their worth, I would have a much better way of dealing with Bullseye.  There are people in this forum who I consider experts, and their qualifications back that up.  When they suggest something, I (eventually) follow their suggestion.  If I don't understand it, it takes me more time.  

The app TargetScan is just a nice way of documenting what a person does.  It's a tool.  It can be used wisely or otherwise. It may be easy or not to use, but it doesn't lie - configured correctly, it tells the shooter what they did, using actual numbers, not adjectives.  

(I would trade all the apps and calculations and everything else for a one-day session with someone very skilled at Bullseye, who would tell me what to do differently, or how to become better.  That's half of what I need.  The other half is to stop the clock, so my age stops decreasing my ability.)
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Post by zanemoseley on 6/14/2019, 6:27 pm

Try to find some local monthly matches and try to make friends with the masters, high masters and even a lot of experts are very knowledgeable. They can offer a lot of tips and you might even get invited to a practice session where they can really watch you.

I can look at my target at a glance and tell what I'm doing. The overwhelming majority of bad shots on the short line are going to be related to a flinch. If you're shooting low left or high right and are RH it's your flinch. As you get better your groups will shrink but I can still spot my flinches in a second. At the long line your hold, focus and trigger control really get tested but still the really bad shots are usually flinches.


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Post by Wobbley on 6/14/2019, 6:37 pm

I’ve used Range Buddy from this outfit. https://reloaderscloud.appspot.com/home.html#services

Just for group sizes and center, stuff like that. Take a snap and analyze. There is a “Pro” version but I’ve never upgraded. I like this because it gives me a mean radius value. This is actually more important than extreme spread as it diminishes a flyer.
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Post by mikemyers on 6/15/2019, 7:39 am

Wobbley wrote:I’ve used Range Buddy from this outfit.  https://reloaderscloud.appspot.com/home.html#services  .......
I installed it on my iPhone - I'm visiting family for next week, so I've got lots of time to figure these things out.  Thanks!

'zanemoseley' - still looking for someone local.  'mustachio' has invited me to his club, where they hold full matches; maybe I'll take him up on his offer.  
In the meantime, there's a ton of good advice right here in the forum.  My results are probably proportional to how well I follow that advice.
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Post by Slartybartfast on 6/15/2019, 11:59 am

Seems very useful to me for long term averages and to look at adjustment of sights.
Comparing centers for different ammo over large sample sets seems a good use as well.
Haven't looked at it for a while.
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Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 6/16/2019, 3:45 am

It was effective for air rifle, clean single holes on a target.  Couldn’t get it to work worth a snot for Bullseye and quit using it a couple years ago.
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Post by Doug Tiedt on 6/16/2019, 4:04 pm

Mike Myers writes:

> If I had a coach, someone who has already proved their worth, I would have a much better way of dealing with Bullseye.

Hmmm, well I am only a Marksman and certainly have not "proved my worth" by your standards.
I have however informally coached 2 other shooters this past year, both of whom improved quite a bit and  now both are out-shooting me.  (To be fair, I've had some severe medical issues and have not been able to shoot for 6 months).  But right now, I would be better off getting coaching from
my "students".

If you are looking for a professional coach who you are going to pay, by all means find an accomplished shooter who can teach others.  Being able to explain things to others is a skill
that only some possess, and in my experience not all professional teachers or coaches do.

Mike, I have read many posts by you complaining that you don't understand what the masters on this board are trying to say.  Perhaps you can benefit from others closer to your level that can explain things in your language because you are both at the same level?  Just a point to ponder.

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Post by David R on 6/16/2019, 6:39 pm

Used Targt scan. Sometimes it would call the numbers printed on the white as shots. A cluster was hard for it to figure out. Coult not depend on it.

Gave up. Use Target score to make fine mesurements of groups. That is more for Rifles.
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Post by inthebeech on 6/16/2019, 7:05 pm

Train the basics Mike.
Train.
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Post by Jack H on 6/16/2019, 9:35 pm

inthebeech wrote:Train the basics Mike.
Train.

The only data that counts is your cluster size, and the percentage of shots that are in the main part of the cluster.  Work on shrinking the cluster and increasing the percent. 

It doesn't matter where the cluster is.  I believe it might even help keep your mind off score if you train/practice with your cluster in the 7 ring.    Move the sights later. 

Think of this as like the Marine workbook shooting your shots into a circle of a certain scoring ring.
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Post by mikemyers on 6/16/2019, 10:52 pm

Jack H wrote:The only data that counts is your cluster size, and the percentage of shots that are in the main part of the cluster.  Work on shrinking the cluster and increasing the percent. 
The wording is different, but I am trying to follow Dave Salyer's explanation of "area aiming".  Instead of aiming at a point, I'm watching the "wobble area", and trying to keep it over the black area of the target.  According to statistics, the majority of my shots should be in the center, decreasing as the distance to the X increases.  My goal is to do exactly that - no more.  

As Dave explained, trying to "outshoot" my Wobble area is impossible - that's the limit of how well I can shoot, and I will get my best results if I center the shots over the bull.  What I can do, is number one, press the trigger smoothly in a way that it doesn't disturb the gun, and number two, resist the temptation to "grab a shot" as the sight dot is over the X.  Using Brian Zins suggestion, of trying to fire the gun as the dot is approaching the X is how I should do things, but since the pressure on the trigger is smoothly increasing, the gun is going to fire regardless of where the dot might be - meaning my job is to be moving the dot onto the X at the moment the gun is going to fire (not the other way 'round).

Jack H, what you and 'inthebeech' suggest is what I'm doing, but I'm doing that in a way that is consistent with Dave Salyer's "Area Aiming" technique.

The group is all that counts - the cluster, as you put it - and I can easily shift that where I want it to be by adjusting the sights.  It seems to me that the better my trigger finger behaves, and the tighter I grip the gun, the more likely the group will be tighter.

(I guess I'm saying I am trying to optimize "the fundamentals", following Dave Salyer's specific suggestions:
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8516-area-aiming-by-dave-salyer?highlight=Dave+salyer  )
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Post by DA/SA on 6/17/2019, 7:03 am

inthebeech wrote:Train the basics Mike.
Train.

Mike,

I believe the message here is that your shooting isn't going to improve by trying different brass, powders, projectiles, primers, case gauges, scopes, phone apps, pistols etc. if the fundamentals aren't in place.

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