Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

It had to happen eventually

+8
chopper
Black_Talon
mikemyers
zanemoseley
Jon Eulette
shoot308
fc60
straybrit
12 posters

Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty It had to happen eventually

Post by straybrit 11/1/2020, 6:18 pm

Doing 'step' loads. This was the third round with, supposedly, 3.2gr WST. *Something* went through the chrono at 480fps.  I got a face full of shrapnel and gave thanks for my glasses. Broke the grip. Needless to say it's going to the smith tomorrow to get checked out.  I was trying to be really careful doing the loads as well. Take care out there  Smile



It had to happen eventually Img_2012

straybrit

Posts : 194
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by fc60 11/1/2020, 6:24 pm

Greetings,

More details, please.

Is that a 38 Special?

What sort of gun were you using?

Bullet and weight?

Cheers,

Dave
fc60
fc60

Posts : 1048
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : South Prairie, WA 98385

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by shoot308 11/1/2020, 6:37 pm

I have had factory ammo blow the case like that. Blew the mag out and stung my hands. Felt the grips expand.

shoot308

Posts : 25
Join date : 2012-08-27
Location : Menomonee Falls, WI

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Jon Eulette 11/1/2020, 6:41 pm

Glad your ok! What pistol?
I had 6.2 gr BE 148 hbwc rip me a new one a very long time ago (3.1 x 2 = 6.2). Sliced the case perfectly/beautifully. Split the grips. Stung my hand really good. Powder burns on hand. No sign of the bullet on the target. Pistol was fine.
Learned my lesson about fixing a reloader issue.
Jon
Jon Eulette
Jon Eulette

Posts : 3390
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by straybrit 11/1/2020, 6:57 pm

38 special. Clark heavy slide. 148g HBWC.

Was stepping through from 2.9gr WST to 3.6gr WST in 0.1gr steps. Checking speeds and groups at 50 yds. 3rd 3.2 round did it. 

I suspect what happened was that I extra charged it by raising the shellplate to pick up a primer. Yeah Jon - I need to fix the primer feed.

straybrit

Posts : 194
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by zanemoseley 11/1/2020, 8:29 pm

Exactly the reason I use a powder check die. I hope to avoid the "fun" you and Jon experienced. Glad you're ok.


Last edited by zanemoseley on 11/1/2020, 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

zanemoseley

Posts : 2269
Join date : 2015-07-11
Location : Cookeville, TN

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by mikemyers 11/1/2020, 8:29 pm

This is another good reason for finding a way to add an RCBS LockOut die to a reloading press.

As noted above - glad you are OK.
Also, that you were wearing safe glasses for shooting.


I had a problem a few weeks ago, where a case didn't load properly.  I thought I fixed things, but forgot to empty out the powder that was already in it.  Chances are I'd have noticed the double load before placing a bullet on top, but I never got the chance - the LockOut Die just went CLANK and wouldn't allow the press to operate.  First, and hopefully the last time this happens, but the LockOut die will catch the problem of an empty case or double load.


The most scary thing I read in your post was "a face full of shrapnel".  I wear my safety glasses (polycarbonate) at the range, and when reloading.  You are VERY lucky.


Jon, what was the lesson you learned?  I'm all ears.  What press were you using?


Oops, Zane's response snuck in while I was typing the above.  
Too bad the press manufacturers don't add enough stations to make this easier for everyone to do.
mikemyers
mikemyers

Posts : 3707
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 77
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Black_Talon 11/1/2020, 8:43 pm

3.2 WST is kinda hot for an HBWC. Maybe you had a skirt stuck in the bbl from the previous shot?
Black_Talon
Black_Talon

Posts : 125
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : SoCal

jglenn21 likes this post

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by chopper 11/1/2020, 8:47 pm

straybrit wrote:38 special. Clark heavy slide. 148g HBWC.

Was stepping through from 2.9gr WST to 3.6gr WST in 0.1gr steps. Checking speeds and groups at 50 yds. 3rd 3.2 round did it. 

I suspect what happened was that I extra charged it by raising the shellplate to pick up a primer. Yeah Jon - I need to fix the primer feed.
 I did that on a 550, thought I had my last primer that didn't drop all the way and pulled handle again. Caught my mistake on the last 2 cartridges before they got mixed in the bin. Pulled both bullets and it was the 2nd one (not crimped) yet. I'm glad I look at my primer slide, I've seen it happen a few times later until I fixed my priming feed.  
 I'm glad your okay, I've never experienced anything like that yet and hope I don't. Those 38s are hard to see the powder charge in them too.
Stan

chopper

Posts : 535
Join date : 2013-10-29
Age : 69
Location : Western Iowa

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by fc60 11/2/2020, 10:36 am

Greetings,

This has happened to me twice in the past 40 years.

The 1911 38 Special barrel does not support the case fully. Drop an empty case in the barrel and look at it from the lug side.

With WST, chronograph results show that 2.8 grains with a HBWC is very close to factory velocity.

Examine fired factory wadcutter ammo. You will find a slight "bulge" just forward of the rim on one side only. It will align with the unsupported portion of the barrel.

Sizing and firing the cases eventually leads to the weakening of the brass and when pushed too far it will burst.

Not so much of a problem with revolvers as the cylinder fully supports the case web.

Cheers,

Dave
fc60
fc60

Posts : 1048
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : South Prairie, WA 98385

Slamfire likes this post

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by straybrit 11/2/2020, 10:48 am

Yeah - chrono shows that 2.9 WST and Precision Delta factory are the same (at least within the same error bars) in my gun. I was experimenting to see if I could get better 50yd groups and less deviation from the 25yd sight settings.

The brass was all <10 reloads from new. 

I suspect that I'll just fire the remainder from my revolver and carry on with the 2.9 that I was using before.

straybrit

Posts : 194
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Texasref 11/3/2020, 6:55 am

I had a 9mm do the same thing. Face full of powder, blew the mag out and went to half-cocked. Checked for a squib but thankfully the round was not stuck.
Sometimes there are small fractures in the case that we don't see or feel before loading.
It happens whether we increase the charge a little too much or load a damaged case.

Two things: One you weren't hurt (that's the best thing). And two the gun did exactly what it was supposed to do when the pressure in the breech/chamber became too high.

Texasref

Posts : 57
Join date : 2020-08-16
Age : 65
Location : Houston

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by mikemyers 11/3/2020, 7:11 am

The title of this thread is "It had to happen eventually".  To me that's like describing automobile accidents, but I think the wording is too strong, for either.  

If someone sets up their reloading gear properly, and uses an accepted load, and throws away cases that look obviously damaged, is an incident like this something they should expect to happen eventually?

I've always thought that reloading was like shooting - follow the safety rules, and you'll be fine.  But lots of people have responded up above that this happened to them, and it very likely could have happened to me had I not been using some kind of "powder check die" as zanemoseley put it.  (....and not following the safety rules for shooting or reloading is potentially dangerous.  If you're sleepy, or tired, or not really paying attention, you need to STOP.)


Excluding errors on the part of the reloader, how likely is it that this is something that is "bound to happen eventually"?  Maybe we could have a thread here that discusses the different devices available, and how to select one.  (Someone here told me about the RCBS LockOut Die many years ago, and I immediately bought one.)
mikemyers
mikemyers

Posts : 3707
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 77
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Texasref 11/3/2020, 7:37 am

Mike,
weakened cases from being fired and reloaded numerous times. You don't see an internal or included stress area within the case. A crack in the case we should hopefully see and discard those.
That's about the only thing I have first hand experience with and about the only thing I would consider not in error.

Texasref

Posts : 57
Join date : 2020-08-16
Age : 65
Location : Houston

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by pgg 11/3/2020, 4:59 pm

mikemyers wrote:Excluding errors on the part of the reloader, how likely is it that this is something that is "bound to happen eventually"?  Maybe we could have a thread here that discusses the different devices available, and how to select one.  (Someone here told me about the RCBS LockOut Die many years ago, and I immediately bought one.)

Safe systems and processes are deliberately and thoughtfully built to be safe. They don't count on people being on top of their game 100% of the time, because no one is.

Good: "When you're sleepy or not really paying attention, YOU should stop."

Better: "Use a lockout die so the PRESS stops when a double charge slips through."

Best: "Choose a bulky powder so it's physically IMPOSSIBLE for a bullet to be seated when a double charge slips through."

The latter two assume a human will screw something up eventually, but the system won't let the failure through. Sometimes we can't choose the safest course of action because of other conflicting objectives (maybe a bulky powder that can produce the required precision on target can't be obtained) but then we make informed risk/benefit decisions and select other engineering controls.


It's not possible to engineer all danger out of an activity like handloading ammunition, but certain failure modes can be designed out of your process. Wise reloaders do it. Naive reloaders just tell themselves they're careful and have never had a problem.

JMHO as a guy who does risky stuff for a living. I think reloading pistol on a progressive using a dense powder without a check/cop/lockout die is foolish.

pgg

Posts : 133
Join date : 2015-11-21

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by straybrit 11/3/2020, 5:33 pm

I think reloading pistol on a progressive using a dense powder without a check/cop/lockout die is foolish.

You may be right and I'm inclined to agree - but a strict interpretation of that stance means no bullseye shooter would use a 550 with currently available dies. At least those that I can see.  Don't see that happening - so we need another method of fail-safe.

I have always spotted increased charges in a 45 ACP because they're shorter and wider and I do look in the case as I'm seating the bullet. What this has taught me is that the 38sp case is too long and narrow to get a reliable visual indication.

straybrit

Posts : 194
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by mikemyers 11/3/2020, 6:23 pm

straybrit wrote:.......a strict interpretation of that stance means no bullseye shooter would use a 550 with currently available dies. At least those that I can see.......
Maybe change "would" to "should".  

With all the money we spend on gear, why not spend a little more for additional stations, one of which would be a die to catch bad loads?

I think it's "cost" vs "convenience" vs "safety".  

I think I read where PhotoEscape makes a very handy part to allow loading quickly and safely on a Hornady Lock-n-Load.
If I was buying a press today, and it couldn't be my RCBS Pro2000, it would almost certainly be the Hornady.

Anybody can do anything, if they know how.  A gunsmith/machinist could probably do incredible work with ordinary hand tools.  A non-gunsmith/machinist would be wasting his time even if he owned all the very best tools.

Just having auto-index makes a double charge almost impossible, unless the operator does something really dumb.
The LockOut Die makes a double charge impossible, period, unless someone did it deliberately, on purpose.

How much more does the Hornady cost, above and beyond a Dillon 550B ?


Last edited by mikemyers on 11/3/2020, 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
mikemyers
mikemyers

Posts : 3707
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 77
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by zanemoseley 11/3/2020, 6:25 pm

pgg wrote:
I think reloading pistol on a progressive using a dense powder without a check/cop/lockout die is foolish.

This is the exact reason I advocate 5 stage presses for anyone getting a progressive. If they ultimately decide on a 4 stage press like a 550 then I want them to at least know the risks, I think the 550 is too commonly recommended to beginners, to me it's more of a press for advanced reloaders due to the lack of an auto advancing shell plate or ability to run a powder check. It's a modest additional expense for much more piece of mind.


Last edited by zanemoseley on 11/3/2020, 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

zanemoseley

Posts : 2269
Join date : 2015-07-11
Location : Cookeville, TN

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by mikemyers 11/3/2020, 6:30 pm

Actually, that line came from 'pgg' not from me.
He should get the credit for it (but I certainly agree with him).
mikemyers
mikemyers

Posts : 3707
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 77
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by zanemoseley 11/3/2020, 6:45 pm

Fixed it.

zanemoseley

Posts : 2269
Join date : 2015-07-11
Location : Cookeville, TN

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Wes Lorenz 11/3/2020, 7:47 pm

I agree with Mr. Meyers & Zane about LNL's, Pro 2000's, Pro Chucker 5 & 7's.
JMO, but all reloaders should have the bullet seating station right in front of the operator, so they can confirm powder charge. Case insertion station is not very important in my mind.
I turn my Star's 90 degrees to see the powder drop in the case. Did this after an episode next to Roddy one year.
Modified my RL-300 to this configuration for rifle. If you are a machinist, it can be done on a 550.
It had to happen eventually Img_1513


Last edited by Wes Lorenz on 11/3/2020, 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added Zane)

Wes Lorenz

Posts : 290
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Washington

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Slamfire 11/5/2020, 4:47 pm

fc60 wrote:
The 1911 38 Special barrel does not support the case fully. Drop an empty case in the barrel and look at it from the lug side.

Dave


This.

I recommend any and all read the blowback section of Col Chinn's Vol IV book, the Machine Gun. You can down load it for free from here:  https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/index.html

I don't know why the shooting community is all a ga ga about chamber headspace and yet ignores the real safety critical measurement: cartridge case head protrusion. The cartridge case is not a self contained pressure vessel, it is a "gasket". It is made of brass, the sidewalls taper,


This is a picture from Chinn

It had to happen eventually PWU3Rmi


and so is this:



It had to happen eventually 2xGBYpt


Read the blow back section and you will understand how critical it is to have case head support, and how little tolerances you have for cartridge case head protrusion. It would be interesting to gauge how much case sidewall is sticking out of a 38 Special semi auto pistol chamber.


You cannot run a 38 Special hot in one of these 38 Special pistols as so much of the case head is unsupported out of the chamber. Given that you are using a case that was not designed or built for semi auto applications, and the sidewall thickness varies, expect more of this to happen.

Slamfire

Posts : 150
Join date : 2016-04-18

Back to top Go down

It had to happen eventually Empty Re: It had to happen eventually

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum