Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Firing Point width

+7
Deerspy
STEVE SAMELAK
chiz1180
Soupy44
cdrt
fc60
TonyH
11 posters

Go down

Firing Point width Empty Firing Point width

Post by TonyH 2/2/2021, 6:17 pm

Section 6.2 of the NRA Pistol Rulebook states "Each firing point should have a minimum width of 4 feet", however I can't find any reference to a width requirement in the CMP Pistol Rules.
I am in the process of starting up a new BE program on a new range that is somewhat limited in width (36' from side berm toe to side berm toe) and I was trying to maximize the total number of firing points. What is the recommendation from those of you have experience in the subject? Should we stick with the 4 foot recommendation of the NRA or can we reduce the target point width to something less (3 feet?). The initial thought is to purchase a commercial turning target system that has a standard width of 4' between target points, but they can customize the width to our specifications.
Considering the disarray of the NRA Competition Division lately, I was leaning heavily towards running CMP sanctioned matches once the range is setup and ready.
Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks.
TonyH
TonyH

Posts : 631
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by fc60 2/2/2021, 6:24 pm

Greetings,

If you are starting from scratch, have a look at the UIT/ISSF standards.

You never know, International shooting might make a come back in the USA.

This way, you are covered for NRA, CMP, and ISSF.

Also, pay attention to what direction the targets rotate. I 'think' it is clockwise from away to facing. The ISSF rules do mention it.

Cheers,

Dave
fc60
fc60

Posts : 1082
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : South Prairie, WA 98385

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by cdrt 2/2/2021, 9:05 pm

From the NRA International Rule Book:  The targets shall be equipped with a rotating mechanism and shall be mounted so as to permit their turning through 90 degrees (±10 degrees) on their vertical axis. (In the precision course, stationary target frames may be used.) When the targets are brought to rest, either facing or edge on, there must be no visible vibration that might distract the competitor. When viewed from the firing line, the targets will turn in a clockwise direction to the facing position and in a counterclockwise direction to the edge on position.Time for turning must not exceed 0.3 seconds.
cdrt
cdrt

Posts : 769
Join date : 2016-04-12
Location : Amarillo, Texas

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by TonyH 2/2/2021, 9:39 pm

I did read that and the direction of rotation is not a problem. The width of a firing point for International competition, best as I can find thus far, is 1 meter or 3.3 feet. For 50m Free Pistol it’s 1.25m or 4.1 feet per the NRA International Pistol rules.
Have not found that in the ISSF rules yet.....but have not looked yet in detail, other things took priority in the short term.Wink
TonyH
TonyH

Posts : 631
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by cdrt 2/2/2021, 10:24 pm

Most of the pistol ranges I've shot on, have had the firing points less than four feet. No one complained.  I'll measure the ones on our indoor range tomorrow and let you know the dimensions.
cdrt
cdrt

Posts : 769
Join date : 2016-04-12
Location : Amarillo, Texas

Jon Eulette and Jwhelan939 like this post

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by Soupy44 2/3/2021, 11:57 am

The firing point width must be 4ft, but what is the distance between targets.  Could the design get a little trapezoidal?

This might be nixed if the definition of a firing point has to extend all the way down range.

Soupy44

Posts : 152
Join date : 2016-10-24
Location : Raleigh, NC

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by chiz1180 2/3/2021, 1:11 pm

Food for thought. The closer the targets are, the easier it is for someone to crossfire. With the typical 25/50yard target dimension of approximately 2ftx2ft with the 4ft spacing as described, the blank space between the targets is the same size as a target face

chiz1180

Posts : 521
Join date : 2019-05-29

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by STEVE SAMELAK 2/3/2021, 1:41 pm

Soupy44 wrote:The firing point width must be 4ft, but what is the distance between targets.  Could the design get a little trapezoidal?

This might be nixed if the definition of a firing point has to extend all the way down range.
If the target spacing is not the same as the firing point spacing then the butts would be describing an arc (think of an opera house layout).
If you were to build a range with 48" centers and 60" centers (as an example), and made the lines straight & parallel, only the center position would be square to it's target.
STEVE SAMELAK
STEVE SAMELAK

Posts : 840
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by Deerspy 2/3/2021, 4:13 pm

width and height seams to be all over the place at ranges I have shot at no two were the same and some the bench top to narrow box hangs over on some, I don't think any one ever objected to but just did not like it,
make level and wide built for ease of use!

Deerspy

Posts : 239
Join date : 2013-01-30
Location : east Iowa

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by cdrt 2/3/2021, 9:44 pm

As promised, I measured the spacing on our indoor range this evening. The firing line/distance between the side walls is 70 feet. We have 12 firing points with six benches. The benches are on wheels since we have to move them when the smallbore shooters do their thing.
The benches are seven feet long, so each shooter has three and a half feet for their gun box and equipment. There is a space between the end of each bench between 2 and 3 feet, so it's easy to go down and score.
I measured the distance between the center of each target to the next one; 55 inches. We can shoot at either 25 yards for regular matches or 50 feet for the Sectional.
Our targets turn clockwise to edge, so they would be legal for International events, but they turn too slow. We have a hydraulic system and there is no way to get them to turn faster.  We would have to put in a pneumatic system, but the cost would be prohibitive.
Given the layout, we are pretty close to what the NRA wants regarding range standards.
cdrt
cdrt

Posts : 769
Join date : 2016-04-12
Location : Amarillo, Texas

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by Jon Eulette 2/3/2021, 9:50 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:
Soupy44 wrote:The firing point width must be 4ft, but what is the distance between targets.  Could the design get a little trapezoidal?

This might be nixed if the definition of a firing point has to extend all the way down range.
If the target spacing is not the same as the firing point spacing then the butts would be describing an arc (think of an opera house layout).
If you were to build a range with 48" centers and 60" centers (as an example), and made the lines straight & parallel, only the center position would be square to it's target.
I’ve shot on several  ranges that are unfortunately layed out like this.
Drives me nuts. Bullets go into the target angled.
POA feels crooked as well.
Jon
Jon Eulette
Jon Eulette

Posts : 3461
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by TureB 2/4/2021, 6:59 am

The trapezoidal shape is an effect of the ISSF rules:
targets in each 5 shot bay are required to be spaced C-C 0.75m (about 29,5 inches) whereas 
shooting positions are required to be 1m (about 39,5 inches) wide.

It means on a ISSF approved range:
shooters in position 3, 8, 13 so forth has the target right in front of him
shooters in position 2 and 4 (7 and 9, 12 and 14) are .25m (about 10 inches) offset left and right
shooters in position 1 and 5 (6 and 10, 11 and 15) are .5m (about 20 inches) offset left and right

I´ve always just accepted it, and it really doesn´t bother me.

The target spacing matters for rapid fire pistol, shooters condition themselves to turn an exact angle between shots and a range with another spacing would be quite disturbing...

/AndersT

TureB

Posts : 16
Join date : 2018-03-21
Age : 49
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by fc60 2/4/2021, 12:24 pm

TureB wrote:The trapezoidal shape is an effect of the ISSF rules:
targets in each 5 shot bay are required to be spaced C-C 0.75m (about 29,5 inches) whereas 
shooting positions are required to be 1m (about 39,5 inches) wide.

It means on a ISSF approved range:
shooters in position 3, 8, 13 so forth has the target right in front of him
shooters in position 2 and 4 (7 and 9, 12 and 14) are .25m (about 10 inches) offset left and right
shooters in position 1 and 5 (6 and 10, 11 and 15) are .5m (about 20 inches) offset left and right

I´ve always just accepted it, and it really doesn´t bother me.

The target spacing matters for rapid fire pistol, shooters condition themselves to turn an exact angle between shots and a range with another spacing would be quite disturbing...

/AndersT
Greetings AndersT,

Is the above layout for the ISSF Rapid Fire?

I have fired the Rapid Fire course and, yes, the targets are at an angle for Target 1 and Target 5 when shooting.

Cheers,

Dave
fc60
fc60

Posts : 1082
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : South Prairie, WA 98385

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by TureB 2/4/2021, 12:53 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings AndersT,

Is the above layout for the ISSF Rapid Fire?

I have fired the Rapid Fire course and, yes, the targets are at an angle for Target 1 and Target 5 when shooting.

Cheers,

Dave
Yes.

Well, the target spacing is for ISSF Rapid fire pistol, and you´re shooting from the center position which means you begin and end shooting a little sideways.

The rules actually states that the shooter has a 1,5m x 1,5m square (in the center of the range section) in which to stand when shooting.
Most ranges I have been to in Sweden doesn´t really allow that (fixed sidewalls and concrete floor comes to mind...) however I haven´t seen any shooter prefer to stand back from the 25m line so I don´t think that is much of an issue.
A few ranges in Germany and the Czech republic that I´ve visited have had no fixed benches or sidewalls, you as a shooter get a small table to put your gun and ammo on.

For other disciplines you have a 1 in 5 chance of shooting straight on, a 2 in 5 chance of shooting a little to the left or right and a 2 in 5 chance of shooting somewhat more to the left or right. 

A good friend of mine once shot one string of ISSF standard Pistol (20 or 10 seconds) on target 5 when he was standing in position 4, he just aligned with the target that felt natural to him, that pretty much killed his score that day...

TureB

Posts : 16
Join date : 2018-03-21
Age : 49
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by Danehogle 2/7/2021, 6:19 pm

When Cardinal was built, firing line and targets are square and are at 4’ per the NRA range building guide book.
Danehogle
Danehogle

Posts : 322
Join date : 2015-07-13
Location : Mt. Vernon Ohio

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by TureB 2/8/2021, 9:25 am

I just realized that I am not in anyway sure that an ISSF approved range has to have the targets arranged with a C-C distance of 0.75m for all events, maybe it´s OK with a spacing equal to the shooting stands C-C for Standard, Center fire and Sport.

When looking through the current ISSF rulebook, the C-C target spacing is only mentioned in:  "Annex - Rules for paper target scoring" - paragraph 2.5 (75cm, tolerance +1cm) specifically for Rapid fire pistol
No mention of this under paragraph 6.4 (that I could find, I should add)

It is however rare to see a range with either adjustable C-C spacing or double target stands.

In Wiesbaden, Germany I shot the "Schnellfeuerwoche" (Rapid fire week a few times) at an indoor range that was adaptable for 50m (shooting the length of the room), 10m (shooting across the room) and 25m (shooting in both directions along the length of the room, entering in the middle)
For RFP they had mobile target stands with 5 targets each, I believe there were three at each end of the range, so 6 shooters could shoot simultaneously.

Sorry for writing so much about non bullseye range standards...

TureB

Posts : 16
Join date : 2018-03-21
Age : 49
Location : Stockholm, Sweden

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by james r chapman 2/8/2021, 11:10 am

NRA range building book is an excellent start.
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 5371
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 72
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Firing Point width Empty Re: Firing Point width

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum