Cowitness Red Dot

I know this topic has come up before but I want to present it in a different way. Does the accuracy of a red dot change if it is at the center position vs 12 o clock vs 3 o clock vs 7 o clock.

Doesn't it make sense to co witness with a front sight to ensure you were using the exact same spot on the glass for your aim every time?

No. Not even a little bit.

LenV wrote:No. Not even a little bit.

Can you expand? Why would cowitness be a bad thing. Minus the only thing that I saw as a viable argument is taking away some sight picture within the red dot. 

Help me understand Len

Let's start with the  fact that quality red dots are parralax free. That means wherever your dot is in your sight picture if sighted in that is where your bullet is going. The other consideration is practicality. Your front sight would need raised over an inch. To have true co-witness so would the rear sight.

LenV wrote:Let's start with the  fact that quality red dots are parralax free. That means wherever your dot is in your sight picture if sighted in that is where your bullet is going. The other consideration is practicality. Your front sight would need raised over an inch. To have true co-witness so would the rear sight.

I wouldn't need a rear sight because that role is filled by the red dot.

So let's say I 3d print a 19.5mm high front sight, like I did, then I have my gun at the same location every single time. It falls dead center to my Romeo 5.

A co witness requires both the irons, front and rear, and the dot to be in the same plane. The idea is either will work separately from each other.

What your suggesting isn’t co witness, it’s replacing the rear sight with the dot.

My concern with trying it is now you have more things to think about instead of less. That is not conducive to a good Bullseye process. Trust the dot or trust the irons but not together.

Oh crap here come the flames... So I set my Scorpion just resting and turned on my red dot and had it targeted @ 30 or so yards. I sat behind it and moved my head from side to side without touching the firearm. The red dot did indeed move up around 2 to 3 inches on the target when it got to the left side of the view. The most amusing part was seeing me trying to take a picture of that... Not sanely possible. Just trust me when I say it happens. It is a Sig Romeo 5 so I would assume that it is a quality sight. 2 or 3 inches could mean x or 9 @ 50 yards.

Test yours and see if it has the same movement.

Ultra Dot/Aim Point will have little or no parallax movement given the same test.

All dots have movement if the target is  too close. Try it again at 50yds. Changing subject. Ultradot made a set of reticle for one model.
 I mentioned  the  reticle because it did what you're trying to accomplish . The crosshairs were transparent .

The dot is there to translate for you. Meaning "point of aim = point of impact".
Took the front sight off my Mark IV after installing a Vortex. Don't need it anymore. Co-witness is something the mfg. came up with to ease worried minds if the battery went dead while you were in a shootout.

My opinion only: If you are using a dot in Bullseye, use the dot. You don't need the irons anymore. I can't imagine having a dot on a self defense weapon. Those situations are really point and shoot. Most people don't see the sights at all, much less a dot.

Just my thoughts.

A dot is a Dot.  Adding stuff in the sight picture takes the simplicity out of it.

I got out of bullseye because I could not see the sights indoors even with  my Merit optical thingy (which is in no way optical)

I also shoot other disciplines.    

Most people that carry have co witness sights because they could no way depend on an electric sight.  

I shoot bowling pins.   I have slides milled for Burris FF III and 2 Trijicon SRO.

The co witness sights just clutter the beautiful clear and open dot sight.  Instead of looking at the dot, now its dot, front, and rear sight.  

Like said above, the front sight has to be so tall, it looks like a fence post on the front of your gun.    To me this would make holstering difficult.  I have a couple of guns that have the slide milled and I can use the reference mark on the Burris FF III and the front sight and make a hit at 30 feet.  

When using a dot sight, I look at the X, Kind of like throwing a ball, look where you want it to go.  It works better than looking at the dot for me.  So with co witness sights I would be looking at the X, the dot, and the sights.  No thank you.

My Trijicon SRO claims 3 yearts bettery life if on all the time using the automatic brightness feature.    If I replace the battery every year, Its never going to be a problem.

One of my carry guns has a Burris FF III and CT laser grips.  No sights at all.  The rest have laser grips and stock sights.

My 2 best bullseye guns have the slide milled for the TRijicon SRO.  The front sight is there, but I don't see it.  

SO, look at the X, when the dot is hovering in the area, squeeze the trigger.  
Simple like me.

David

Dehumanizer:  Nest time you try your DOT movement experiment actually fire a shot and see where it goes.  The shot should follow the DOT.  I have been using DOT's on firearms for a long time.  Co-witness is something that came out of the AR crowd years ago and certainly seemed logical....then.  Reality speaks to function in that I don't want anything cluttering up what I see thru my DOT.  I spent countless hours trying to get me AR's and pistols to co-witness and finally asked myself WHY?  The chances of a good quality DOT not working are slim to none if you remember to replace the battery, so why bother with it?  Unless you like putzing around with stuff like this....leave it off the table.

Rick H.

Rick H. wrote:Dehumanizer:  Nest time you try your DOT movement experiment actually fire a shot and see where it goes.  The shot should follow the DOT.  I have been using DOT's on firearms for a long time.  Co-witness is something that came out of the AR crowd years ago and certainly seemed logical....then.  Reality speaks to function in that I don't want anything cluttering up what I see thru my DOT.  I spent countless hours trying to get me AR's and pistols to co-witness and finally asked myself WHY?  The chances of a good quality DOT not working are slim to none if you remember to replace the battery, so why bother with it?  Unless you like putzing around with stuff like this....leave it off the table.

Rick H.

I am a tinkerer... constantly trying to better my shot. 

I will try what you say after my match tomorrow. It will be difficult without a ransom rest.  But not many disagreed with me. So I think I may be on to something.

What I find amusing is we have guys/gals that weigh/measure their rounds to group them in like strings but accept the fact that their red dot could be aiming at the wrong spot just because they looked through it differently than the shot before.

BTW please no one take offense to what I say. I overanalyze everything. I could write a book on all the overthinking I did with pool when I went into it with as much fervor as I have with BPS.

I have tested the dot off center and it hits where it should.   I have not tried it on the edge of the sight because I would not shoot it like that.

David

If you have the chance to wrap your hands around a Sig P365x with a Romeozero you should do so. Co-witness done right. Probably my next toy.

If you start with a pistol design that incorporates a red dot right from the start then things run a bit different.  In something like the Sig P365 the slide can be cut to mate the level of the red dot with whatever height sights are being used.  What happens if you decide to run a different make red dot?  So in essence they killed two birds with one stone and made some customers happy.  I have come to the point where less is better for me.  I don't want irons sights cluttering up what I am trying to look at.  On some of my AR's this was best accomplished with good flip-up sights for that just-in-case moment where my dot sight may fail, which is highly unlikely.  The sights live in a depressed state and all I see is my dot, but even if I flip them up they don't co-witness with the dot.  They are close, but not dead on as that was never my intention for full co-witness.  I wish I had the money that was spent by guys trying to get a full co-witness on their firearms, especially handguns.  Like I said, less view obstruction for me is better.

Rick H.

+1 Rick.
I'm waiting on a mfg. that goes dot only. No front or rear sights. Much like rifles that are intended to have scopes. Mill the slide for a dot and move on.