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Name That Powder

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Post by lanjo 2/13/2022, 8:48 pm

Hi All,

I am trying to reverse engineer a commercially available 38 wad cutter load that works well in my M52.  This is the powder they are using.  It does not look like bullseye, 231, tightgroup or N310 all of these i have.  Which powder is this?

See attachment photo....

Best

Joe
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lanjo

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Post by SteveT 2/13/2022, 10:27 pm

Some kind of custom blend? I've not seen powder with different shaped grains.

2.7gr WST is THE load for 148 HBWC.


Last edited by james r chapman on 2/14/2022, 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correction)
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Post by lanjo 2/13/2022, 11:30 pm

I have been looking online and can't find a powder that looks like this.  All the grains have the same color and sheen to them, which makes me think that they are all made of the same material.  It is just the drying process makes these irregular shapes.  Not flakes or extrusions.

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Post by Wobbley 2/14/2022, 12:24 am

Who made the ammo?  

Generally speaking, provided the velocities are similar, most powders of the same burning speed class will give decent velocity and accuracy in 38 WC loads.  I tested 4 powders two years ago; Bullseye, 452AA, Red Dot and 700X.  (The Red Dot and 452AA were picked up from shotgunner estate sales).  I found very similar accuracy with only slight edges to Bullseye and 452AA.  Name That Powder 1d849610

The four targets was a “use ‘em up” shoot from the chronograph loads.  Below is the data.  DO NOT USE the upper load of Red Dot.  Name That Powder F578cb10
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Post by Dcforman 2/14/2022, 4:46 am

BTW, Steve meant 2.7 WST. Do NOT load 3.7!!!

Dave


Last edited by james r chapman on 2/14/2022, 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Fixed it! Admin)

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Post by BE Mike 2/14/2022, 8:01 am

From what I have gathered over many years is that ammo manufacturers mostly don't use canister gun powder, but instead blend powders to reach a certain goal of burn rate, pressure, etc. Your time might be better spent with using a load with a premium bullet, that has been proven to be accurate over many years. Bullseye, Winchester 231 and HP 38 have been the leading powders for .38 SPL for many years. Load 'em up and train!
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Post by SteveT 2/14/2022, 8:49 am

Dcforman wrote:BTW, Steve meant 2.7 WST. Do NOT load 3.7!!!

Dave
Thank you, yes, that is right.
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Post by spursnguns 2/14/2022, 10:11 am

Hello,

I have been doing this for a few years (read decades) and have never seen such a conglomeration of shapes and sizes in a reputable manufacturer's product.  Who made this commercially available ammunition?  I'm ready to learn something new.

Thanks.

Jim
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Post by Schaumannk 2/21/2022, 12:31 am

WST works well but don’t overlook a set of excellent dies coupled with a Hornady M die for case mouth expansion.  Without it, those long wadcutters will not go in straight, and you won’t get reliable accuracy.

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Post by jwax 3/13/2022, 5:02 pm

So, lanjo, are you going to tell us the manufacturer of these rounds?

Inquisitive minds want to know!
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Post by Robuc 3/13/2022, 7:08 pm

Schaumannk wrote:WST works well but don’t overlook a set of excellent dies coupled with a Hornady M die for case mouth expansion.  Without it, those long wadcutters will not go in straight, and you won’t get reliable accuracy.
What is the Hornady M die?  Didn’t see it on Hornady website.   Maybe the custom grade new dimension expander die?

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Post by Schaumannk 3/13/2022, 7:35 pm

The M die is strictly a case mouth expander die.   Allows the bullet to sit perfectly square on the case mouth prior to seating.    For those long bullets, this is critically important to accurate loaded ammo.   
If you have room for it on your progressive press, all is good.   If you don’t there are some work arounds and people who make fixes for the Dillon case mouth expander powder through drop, but they are more expensive and not as good.

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Post by lanjo 3/13/2022, 7:47 pm

These are loads from Roze Distribution.  I hope I am not in legal trouble for revealing the manufacturer.

I got the Lymann M die and it works great.  No lead shaving at all.  Nice seating every time for the WCHB.

I went through my reloading manuals and the max suggested load for a lead WCHB is 3.1 of bullseye.  Probably to prevent separation of the skirt.  Do you guys agree that that is the max that one should go with Bullseye?  I am going to try a load escalation starting at 2.7 then go up 0.1 grains until I reach max, which might be 3.1.

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Post by Dcforman 3/13/2022, 8:04 pm

Honestly, unless you have cycling issues, no need to go that high. I'd try 2.6-2.9. BTW, I'm 99% sure Roze uses 700X for their 45 and 38 loads.

Dave

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Post by jwax 3/13/2022, 8:11 pm

You could ask Roze ("Zero" scrambled) what powder they use. Doubt you'll get an answer.

Any search of this or other sites will indicate 2.7 g of BE is standard for .38SPL HBWC.

About the same weight of WST will get you in the right area.

But, experiment away, but keep in mind that a good load at 25 yds will not necessarily translate into good groups at 50 yds.
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Post by straybrit 3/13/2022, 8:16 pm

2.7g WST for open sights or grip mount, 2.9g WST for viper slide mount red dot. On a Clark heavy slide. I suspect the M52 will manage with a little less.

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Post by james r chapman 3/13/2022, 8:39 pm

https://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php
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Post by Wobbley 3/13/2022, 9:55 pm

If they are Roze (Zero) reloads, it’s very likely that this is a not-available-to-handloaders powder.  Commercial reloaders only.    You could ask Zero, but they probably won’t tell you or at least anything meaningful.  

It really doesn’t matter.  It’s performance in your pistols that count anyway.  So I’d start with Bullseye, Accurate #2, Viht N320, TiteGroup, WST, 700X, 231, or. Hodgdon Clays and develop your own loads.  One of those powders should give you “X-ring sized groups at 25 yards without issue.
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Post by rich.tullo 3/14/2022, 12:25 pm

What is the weight? If it is over 3.0 grains my bet it is VN320. 320 looks like that.
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Post by jjfitch 3/14/2022, 10:46 pm

When shooting PPC we were able to duplicate the Winchester Match 38, 148 grain, LHBWC using 3.1 grains of W231 and Federal Gold Medal Match primers. I shot this load using Winchester 148 grain LHBWC bullets. Same POA/POI! 

For matches I used Winchester 38 and 9mm Match ammo as they were our team sponsor! Smile

Smiles,
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