Brass choice between WCC and TZZ

Eons ago I got a gunnysack full of military brass.  I took the time to separate between WCC and TZZ then life got in the way so it sat.  Now I took the opportunity to get it all processed on a Dillon CP2000 that is auto driven.  Sized and Primer Pockets were swaged.  I have about 3500-4000 of each… both batches have mixed years and there’s a SMALL number of “match” headstamp brass in each group.  So, anyone more experience can tell me if there’s a preferred make? Or if there are any significant differences? Thanks.

"TZZ" is made by IMI industries.  Believe it was made on SCAMP machinery, and not the way Winchester draws its brass.  Believe TZZ won the US .45 auto ammo contract in the 80s/90s by underbidding all US ammo manufacturers, remember shooting TZZ Match ammo at PACFLEET and All Navy in 1996 and 1997.  Am unsure how well it shot (not a great pistol shooter), but others had good scores with it.  Seem to recall even the match bullets had asphalt sealant, and crimped-in primers.  Never reloaded TZZ, so cannot comment on how well ammo using it shoots.  Not sure if this answers your question, but hope it helps.

Asa, long time no see.  I hope you are well.

I heard that TZZ was also loaded hot and broke / beat-to-death some high grade match pistols.  But it’s what they issued.  But I’ve heard good and bad about the brass, more good than bad.  WCC seemed to be more positive but that was years ago.

TZZ was/is hot. Shot good from good pistols. Ball was ball, guns took a beating.
If memory serves me right, primers didn’t always seat flush with TZZ brass when reloaded without reaming primer pocket. WCC simple to reload.
Jon

I have 2500 with headstamp TZZ Match I swaged the pocket on. Some fellow shooters tell me to be careful loading them because they'll be hotter than regular brass. I haven't loaded them yet because I have a hoard of WW and WCC that I'm reloading. Some day I'll load some for the long line.
 Stan

I am on the 3rd firing/2nd reload of some TZZ-85 and 2nd firing/1st reload of some TZZ-89 Match brass I got when shooting Atlantic Fleet/All Navy Matches 1988-1994.  I've got records from those matches showing PLENTY of 260+ EIC scores fired with it, on up to high-270s.
I've had a couple of the 85 cases split, but you get that with any brass.  I swaged the pockets with a Dillon so haven't seen any issues priming.
I haven't chronograph loads compared to other brass, but maybe one day ...

I also know we shot TONS of the TZZ ball ammo when I worked port security.  I normally cleaned the Navy Qual Course with an issued 1911A1.  Won a few $$ from our Marine Training Cadre too

Long and short of it is, I would use the Match brass, either mfr, for 25yd match ammo.  The non-match brass will be excellent for practice, maybe even some 25yd match ammo.

You could always sell one mfr batch off and buy virgin Starline or Winchester, if you can find it, for 50yd match ammo.

TZZ is hard brass good for jkt. WCC better for lead wadcutter

NukeMMC wrote:Long and short of it is, I would use the Match brass, either mfr, for 25yd match ammo.  The non-match brass will be excellent for practice, maybe even some 25yd match ammo.

You could always sell one mfr batch off and buy virgin Starline or Winchester, if you can find it, for 50yd match ammo.

Long and short of it, I have about 1700 Small primer brass, 500 mixed & about 2000 each Federal and Winchester, about half of these two are currently loaded.  I only have a smattering of Starline and R-P.  If I put it las together I’d fill two 20 mm ammo cans.  So I’m not hurting.

The idea that TZZ is better for jacketed and WCC is better for cast is  an idea I’ll have to figure out. 

Thanks guys.

WCC does not actually work well with cast bullets; if you check out a white box of winchester 130 grain full metal jacket you will see that head stamp.  If you use a regular 38 special sizing die after you load a 358 cast bullet the rounds  look like an hour glass.


I am not a know it all about the WCC brass but back in the 1980's when I started reloading purchased 10,000 WCC cases from an add in the back of the shotgun news.   38 special had lost its popularity it was cheap.

I had 5K+ cases of each. I did not swage any primer pockets.
The WCC Match is very easy to reload without any primer pocket swaging. The TZZ primer seating was not as smooth. 
I never saw a difference between TZZ ball and TZZ Match. 
Since you swaged the primer pockets, you will probably have easy loading with TZZ.

I have quite a bit of once fired WCC 77 Match brass. The primer pocket doesn't have a crimp. That would be a determining factor for me. Less processing means less time reloading.

When you have a Mark 7 driven 1050 processing time isn’t very long.  2000 cases per hour…

Asa Yam wrote:"TZZ" is made by IMI industries.  Believe it was made on SCAMP machinery, and not the way Winchester draws its brass.  Believe TZZ won the US .45 auto ammo contract in the 80s/90s by underbidding all US ammo manufacturers, remember shooting TZZ Match ammo at PACFLEET and All Navy in 1996 and 1997.  Am unsure how well it shot (not a great pistol shooter), but others had good scores with it.  Seem to recall even the match bullets had asphalt sealant, and crimped-in primers.  Never reloaded TZZ, so cannot comment on how well ammo using it shoots.  Not sure if this answers your question, but hope it helps.

I too shot the PACFLT and ALL NAVY in 1997 with that TZZ Match.  Stuff did seem to me to be hotter than the WCC match that was also used that year.  I shot good enough to earn a Bronze and an M1 that year-my final year.  Asa you recall correctly in that the TZZ did have asphalt sealant and crimped primers.  The stuff did, for me anyway, shoot pretty good.  I have a lot of the TZZ brass from that match and have reloaded some of it.  Other than having to clean the sealant out and swage the primer pockets, the brass seemed to load the same as every other .45 ACP I have done.  I did not do so good shooting the rifle that year but I did have a good time shooting the pistol.  They were fun matches and they are some of my fondest memories.
Good to hear from you,
Ralph

I hope you don't mind me asking a rookie question here. I have heard of people sorting pistol cases by headstamp. How much difference does it actually make? I'm a numbers-oriented perosn. If you had to quantify the difference it would make, how many points worth of difference would it make in a 300-point national match course? If you shot a NMC with perfectly sorted brass, and shot another with random headspaced brass, how many points would you drop on the latter NMC?

Thank you.

By the way, I've been reloading .45 recently, and I use completely random headspaced brass, including a mix of small/large primer pockets, and I never swage primer pockets. Is this part of the reason why I'm barely hitting the repair center at 25 yards, besides my obvious equipment shortcomings?

First question. What is your NRA classification? Says master but I’m wondering if that’s accurate.
You can load mixed headstamp brass and hold 10 ring at 50 yds easily with good pistol in 45 acp.
If your out of the 10 it’s the trigger puller.
I posted pics recently of sub 2” RR groups with mixed brass.
Jon

I have nothing I need to prove. I'm not interested in one-upping anyone with any sort of classification.

CO1Mtn wrote:I have nothing I need to prove. I'm not interested in one-upping anyone with any sort of classification.

That’s not why I’m asking. Typically a master does/will keep majority of shots in the 10 ring and completely on a repair center. Master’s average 95+, so your comments caused me to question your classification.
When helping others sometimes it helps to know.
So it has nothing to do with proving anything.
When shooters were picked up on the All Army Reserve Pistol Team, regardless of there classification they were to shoot master class.
Jon