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Flat VS Arched MSH and perception of how the dot responds in dry fire

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chopper
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Flat VS Arched MSH and perception of how the dot responds in dry fire Empty Flat VS Arched MSH and perception of how the dot responds in dry fire

Post by mhayford45 9/11/2022, 12:41 pm

I have been using arched MSH for years as the gun seems to point less downward than with a flat MSH. What I mean with "less downward" is when I raise the gun up from a low ready position and bring the dot into view, i do not need to move my hand and wrist upward as much as with a flat MSH to center the dot. This seems to be the wisdom of the past on why you should use a arched MSH. However, when  i am dry firing, the dot has a tendency to move downward on the break unless I use a lite grip almost to the point of limp wristing the shot. The stronger the grip the more it wants to move or feels like I am pulling it downward. 

Is this a incorrect grip issue or just the nature of a arched MSH?

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Post by SteveT 9/11/2022, 1:18 pm

If a flat MSH works better for you, use it. Have you tried both and found flat better? Is it a general dip during the trigger pull or a sudden jump down at the instant the trigger breaks?

A slow dip during trigger pull could be changing grip pressure in the other fingers, dipping the wrist because your concentration is elsewhere and the wrist is returning to "normal" or trigger pull induced (if you use a slow smooth trigger pull). All of these just need training to ingrain the correct position and grip.

A sudden jump is more than likely trigger pull. The general rule of thumb is to move the finger on the trigger in the direction of the jump, so if the jump is down, move the finger lower on the trigger. The theory is that you are pulling the gun up with the trigger pressure and as the trigger breaks, the force is released and the balancing force pushes the gun in that direction. This doesn't always work (at least for me) but it is a good place to start.
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Post by Jon Eulette 9/11/2022, 4:06 pm

I think it’s grip related. It’s placement of either the web or heel of the hand. I think grip pressure is related more to horizontal dot movement than vertically.
At your level I don’t think it’s trigger pull related. And grip certainly does affect trigger pull.
Jon
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Post by SingleActionAndrew 9/11/2022, 5:23 pm

I am no master but I read in the Encyclopedia of Bullseye one shooter's recommendation of not applying pressure with the pinky, with the reasoning that as the trigger finger tightens so does the grip and the lower fingers on the grip handle might pull the front post down. Just a thought?
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Post by Jon Eulette 9/11/2022, 6:38 pm

The pinky finger is a myth. You have to learn how to grip and independently squeeze the trigger with your trigger finger alone.
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Post by PhotoEscape 9/11/2022, 7:21 pm

Bruce Martindale came up with concept, he calls TOTO.  It is worth exploring, and, I hope, he will make his book available to wider audience soon.  It is "work in progress" for now as I understand.

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Post by Wobbley 9/11/2022, 8:24 pm

SingleActionAndrew wrote:I am no master but I read in the Encyclopedia of Bullseye one shooter's recommendation of not applying pressure with the pinky, with the reasoning that as the trigger finger tightens so does the grip and the lower fingers on the grip handle might pull the front post down. Just a thought?
To reiterate what Jon said.  If you can’t separate your trigger finger action from your grip pressure, your grip is changing for each shot.  With a changing grip your shot placement is inconsistent and your groups will be large no matter how good your call is.
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Post by chopper 9/11/2022, 9:53 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I think it’s grip related. It’s placement of either the web or heel of the hand. I think grip pressure is related more to horizontal dot movement than vertically.
At your level I don’t think it’s trigger pull related. And grip certainly does affect trigger pull.
Jon
  I don't want to stray off what the OP is asking but maybe this can help him also.
  Jon, could you define the placement more. I used a grip where I would put the 1911 in my hand and turn my hand so the backstrap would line up on the first wrinkle (crease) of the thumb in the palm. The chubby thumb area is on the left slab side with thumb pointing forward and everything else is on the right, except a small amount of my heel that is at the bottom of the backstrap. I then tried a grip where I dragged the web up into the beavertail. The rest of the chubby thumb is on the left slab and a lot more heel on the strap, thumb rests on the thumb safety. This was a very solid grip except I have a short thumb and it made for a very uncomfortable grip, so I went back to the former grip I was using. I have had issues with both gripping styles 
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Post by Jon Eulette 9/11/2022, 10:56 pm

Gripping pressure needs to be consistent no matter how you decide to grip the pistol. Use fingertip pressure or do not use fingertip pressure. Use your pinky, don’t use your pinky. Be consistent. Back in the late 80’s early 90’s when I was shooting for All-Reserve and AMU, the Marine Corps Scarlet Team was the team to beat at Perry for the Hardball Team Match. 230 gr ball ammunition and recoil was the beast at hand. Those Marines gripped those ball guns until the oil dropped out of the wooden grips. And they used their fingers to grip. Had guys shooting high 280’s and 290’s with that ammunition. Their hands looked checkered from palm to fingertips. And I promise they used their pinky.
I’ve shot 2600+ using front strap and back strap with no fingertips or thumb pressure. And I’ve done it using fingertip and thumb pressure. No tricks, just being consistent.
I don’t think I’ve ever blamed my pinky finger for a bad shot, but I sure can blame my trigger finger.
Tendency for a good shooter is to slightly relax grip pressure just before shot breaks. Typically from holding a little too long before breaking the shot. Relaxed grip normally indicated by feeling it in recoil and the target will have a slightly higher shot; 1 scoring ring 5” pistol and 2 rings longslide.
When I’m shooting a lot I’m dry firing even more. When my dot drops I can usually fix/correct it by very minute grip position change. Trigger pull errors from a master are normally minutely forced shots to the left; 9’s at 50. Hardly ever low, low from holding too long.
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Post by Wobbley 9/11/2022, 11:03 pm

Your grip is dictated by your stance. You want to grip the pistol so that when the pistol is brought up to take a shot, your sights are (reasonably) aligned on your target.  So as your alignment to the target goes from “bladed” to “square”, the gun will rotate in your hand.  Your stance changes a bit as your conditioning changes.  The key is that you want the trigger finger to touch the trigger near the first crease AND you can keep the wrist as straight as if you were punching a heavy bag.  Your stance is checked by the body and arm movement. At one extreme the arm movement is more side to side, at the other it is more vertical.  At some angle to the target line, it is circular and small.  That is your optimal stance.  Then adjust your grip so you can bring up the gun with a straight wrist and the sights are aligned with your eye.
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Post by mhayford45 9/12/2022, 7:16 am

Thank you everyone for your input. 

What I am searching for is more Xs. The dot has a very slight dip downward at the break of the shot. This results in my group being six o'clock 10 ring... not an X, or worse a dreaded hated 8. It does not happen all the time but enough to cause me to focus on it. I thought it might be due to the natural shape and pressure of the arched MSH on the hand, but as it does not happen all the time. It would seem to be more grip related. SO, from Jon..
When my dot drops I can usually fix/correct it by very minute grip position change.
I will work with where in the grip, thumb the issue might be...

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Post by Jon Eulette 9/12/2022, 3:55 pm

Wobbley wrote:Your grip is dictated by your stance. 
Grip is dictated by grip. Stance is stance. When you start a match you have no fatigue yet from shooting. As we fatigue the stance will change, but not the grip. A master will make minor stance changes to compensate; foot position, and amount of lean.
Foot position will affect arm position horizontally. Leaning more to the rear as we fatigue affects us vertically. The fatigue can also minutely affect wrist position.
The grip should not change unless you are making a minor grip correction.
And it takes about 6 months of serious training to change your grip into a new natural feeling grip if you ever decide it’s necessary to change it.
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Post by Axehandle 9/13/2022, 5:39 am

in the late '80s, 10 years into Bullseye shooting exclusively with flat MSHs, I noted an obvious void at the heel of my hand when gripping the pistol.   I now run the Wilson V housing on all my paper punchers.

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Post by mhayford45 9/28/2022, 12:18 pm

After several dry firing sessions I think I have found the reason for the slight dip/drop in the dot when the shot breaks. Here is what I worked on and what my perception was: 

Consistent stronger grip - no change
Consistent weaker grip - no change
Thumb up to top of grip - no change - but it did feel more disconnected from the gun
Thumb mid way on grip (regular spot) - no change
Gun in different locations with web of hand - center of web better - reduced dot drop
Gun in different spots on heal of hand - no change
Gun with center of web and extreme focus on follow through - reduced even more,  there is a sense of downward pressure on the dot which must be overcome with follow through. It is as if the dot is being pulled down.

Questions: does the trigger stop location affect this motion? I will change this and work with it.....

but I would like to know what what others experience is with different lengths of trigger stops.....

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Post by robert84010 9/28/2022, 8:49 pm

Mark,
the trigger over travel can effect this. How the hammer and sear are setup, with or without a clearance notch, can also cause a dip from interference.

here is something I found with a quick search that kind of explains it with pictures.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14541812/check-your-over-travel-stop-1911-related

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Post by mhayford45 9/29/2022, 2:20 pm

Robert84010- a great link and I did find some interference and corrected it. This did help! thanks!

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Post by Jack H 9/30/2022, 12:10 am

Are you sure it is not a little jerk.
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Post by mhayford45 9/30/2022, 3:27 pm

nah, jerks are low left.

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Post by rich.tullo 9/30/2022, 3:47 pm

Fascinating comments thanks. 

I tried both, while arched felt way better my scores were way better with the flat. I think the arched was a solution to a problem that never existed. 

JMB designed the gun with a FLAT MSH and medium trigger , they say it was changed for people with small hands but the 1911 was invented for the Calvary and those guys were small in stature for the era.
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