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38 caliber and obturation

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NukeMMC
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38 caliber and obturation Empty 38 caliber and obturation

Post by Eindecker Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:55 pm

I have always read and heard on forums that the swaged bullets are so easy to obturate up into the chamber and throat/barrel. 

But with the Speer swaged bullets i have, they take a lot more pressure to obturate correctly.  Based on recovered bullets. 

The .3cc dipper of BE couldn't give me a recovered HBWC that had rifling over the length of it. And same issue with the SWC.    But the same dipper with Green Dot and Red Dot left excellent rifling along the length of both bullets and yielded better accuracy,  so far. 


So I am curious as to why everyone seems devoted to a velocity range for bullets, and not to chamber pressure?

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Post by USSR Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:22 pm

Um, we don't describe loads by "dippers", but rather how many grains of powder is being used.

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Post by Eindecker Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:58 pm

USSR wrote:Um, we don't describe loads by "dippers", but rather how many grains of powder is being used.

Don


Yeah i know the lee dipper set isnt "loved" or talked about on here, but im basically at a "zero" level of equipment..

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Post by USSR Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:12 pm

Eindecker wrote:
USSR wrote:Um, we don't describe loads by "dippers", but rather how many grains of powder is being used.

Don


Yeah i know the lee dipper set isnt "loved" or talked about on here, but im basically at a "zero" level of equipment..
Understand.   But, as an NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor, I would suggest that a good set of scales is the single most important piece of hardware you need to have.

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Post by Eindecker Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:18 am

357 magnum hornady 148 HBWC




HodgdonHP-380.358"1.290"3.084514,300 CUP3.490817,600 CUP
38 special hornady 148 HBWC





HodgdonHP-380.358"1.160"3.586914,200 CUP4.095615,900 CUP
could you explain the lower pressure charge getting the higher velocity

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Post by Dcforman Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:35 am

Those loads used different barrel lengths for testing, and different primers. Hard to know for sure why.

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Post by NukeMMC Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:57 am

Dcforman wrote:Those loads used different barrel lengths for testing, and different primers. Hard to know for sure why.

Dave
Also, the 357 magnum case is longer than the 38 special.  Were these run with the same test barrel/fixture?  A 10% difference in "read" pressure from a copper crusher isn't significant unless it is the same fixture and the same lot of copper.
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Post by Dcforman Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:02 am

Also 0.3cc of Bullseye is 2.8 grains. That should be a good load in 38 special. Were the recovered bullets shot from 38 cases or 357 cases? Lastly, as far as I know, Speer bullets aren't known for their accuracy. Part of the issue could be the hardness of the lead. Maybe try something softer, like the Zero/Magnus bullets? You can still use up the Speers you have, maybe just save the BE for different bullets.

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Post by Eindecker Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:26 pm

the BE loads didnt seem to have the ability to fully seal the speer HBWC in the chamber. The red and green dot loads DID. 

Last time i did testing, it did not matter what case i was using, magnum or special.  Stopped using the BE for loading as i was having to load them upside down in magnum cases and add 10% to the 38 special max data (using my crummy hornady pocket scale) before i was actually getting groups under 5 inches. But i was having to shoot at 20 FEET.

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Post by james r chapman Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:32 pm

What gun/barrel length/caliber (special or magnum) are you using???
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Post by DA/SA Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:01 pm

Eindecker wrote:357 magnum hornady 148 HBWC






HodgdonHP-380.358"1.290"3.084514,300 CUP3.490817,600 CUP
38 special hornady 148 HBWC







HodgdonHP-380.358"1.160"3.586914,200 CUP4.095615,900 CUP
could you explain the lower pressure charge getting the higher velocity
Looks like an error in the book to me. Swap the two and it makes sense.
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Post by james r chapman Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:17 pm

Yep, backwards

And velocities way to high.
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Post by Allgoodhits Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:55 pm

Speer, Zero, Precision Delta and other quality HBWC out of a good gun, loaded properly, seated about flush with prober crimp in .38 spl brass with 2.7 - 2.9 gr of BE, WST or 3.0 - 3.1 gr of W231 should give you 50 yd accuracy in the <3" range.  Any of loads in the right combos should give you <2" 50 yd results.

If you're not getting these results, try some FEDERAL 38A wadcutters or other quality WC from your gun. Check results. Also, if possible check your loads out of another "known shooter" gun, compare results.

Get a simple balance beam loading scale and a set of calipers. I think with known, measurable and repeatable,  grain weight  and dimensions, your results will improve. Last, if you haven't already, get a Lewis Lead remover tool and start with clean barrel and throat.
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Post by Eindecker Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:19 pm

james r chapman wrote:Yep, backwards

And velocities way to high.
 look at the tight group load data, its just as odd.

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Post by noylj Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:27 am

Commercial swaged bullets are about 13 BHN, which works great for me up to 44 Mag (or my cast bullets with gas check for rifles).
Hand made swaged bullets are almost all produced using a hand operated press and need pure lead so the person can sewage them.
Personally, all lead bullets should be 0.001" over measured groove diameter.
So far, swaged bullets work perfect in my 45s, 9x19s, 9x21s, and 38 Supers.

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Post by Eindecker Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:51 am

I finally got a reply back from Hodgdon customer service.  

According to the person who replied, the difference in load data is due SOLELY to the fact that the magnum load data uses a MAGNUM primer and somehow, the magnum primer is so much hotter that it required them to use less powder...


Just reading the box on winchester brand SMALL PISTOL PRIMER< NON MAGNUM>  says good for all loads even for magnum primer loads..

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