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Zero HBWC Nose Deformation?

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Post by Soupy44 Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:24 am

I'm about to load some Zero HBWC.  I've done a lot of research and 2.7gr BE with the bullet seated flush is a darn resounding starting point.  

It's the crimp that has me worried.  The top of a Zero bullet is a lot thinner than that of the Remington.  Do I have to worry about deforming it when I crimp?  I've always been told to crimp the hell out of revolver loads.

Thanks!

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Post by james r chapman Wed Apr 05, 2023 8:35 am

I only worry about deforming the base, and bullet setback.
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Post by Wobbley Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:09 am

Zero HBWC Nose Deformation? 58e5cd10
Here is how much to crimp.  It isn’t much really.  Less than some JHP.  The bullet can take it.
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Post by jwax Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:25 pm

Soupy44 wrote:I'm about to load some Zero HBWC.  I've done a lot of research and 2.7gr BE with the bullet seated flush is a darn resounding starting point.  

It's the crimp that has me worried.  The top of a Zero bullet is a lot thinner than that of the Remington.  Do I have to worry about deforming it when I crimp?  I've always been told to crimp the hell out of revolver loads.

Thanks!
Funny you mention that now- I was just reloading some Remington HBWC and noticed if I place the bullet in the belled case upside down (hollow base up), the bullet drops in almost half it's length! While normally, the bell only allows about 1/16" of the base of the bullet to enter the bell.
This indicates there's a taper to the Remington bullet, thinner on top. My Zero HBWC drop in about the same, upside down or normal.

Not sure if there's any noticeable difference downrange, just curious if Remington tapers on purpose, or it's just an artifact.
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Post by BE Mike Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:03 pm

jwax wrote:
Soupy44 wrote:I'm about to load some Zero HBWC.  I've done a lot of research and 2.7gr BE with the bullet seated flush is a darn resounding starting point.  

It's the crimp that has me worried.  The top of a Zero bullet is a lot thinner than that of the Remington.  Do I have to worry about deforming it when I crimp?  I've always been told to crimp the hell out of revolver loads.

Thanks!
Funny you mention that now- I was just reloading some Remington HBWC and noticed if I place the bullet in the belled case upside down (hollow base up), the bullet drops in almost half it's length! While normally, the bell only allows about 1/16" of the base of the bullet to enter the bell.
This indicates there's a taper to the Remington bullet, thinner on top. My Zero HBWC drop in about the same, upside down or normal.

Not sure if there's any noticeable difference downrange, just curious if Remington tapers on purpose, or it's just an artifact.
I always considered the roll crimping of factory .38 SPL 148 gr. HBWC ammo to be for the benefit of PPC revolver competitors, to aid the chambering of the charging holes using speed loaders. I always just taper crimped, even when loading for a S&W model 52 and never had any feeding issues. I don't know if there has ever been a serious test of accuracy using a taper crimp vs. roll crimp.
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Post by USSR Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:40 pm

I always use a taper crimp for .38 HBWC loads.

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Post by Soupy44 Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:58 pm

So I'm using Photoescape's PTU for 38 WC, the one for Zero bullets since I'm using those bullets. The cases were really rough to get out of it, so I added some one shot. Helped for a few cases, then I had a case head separate.

First, how do I get the brass off?

Second, how do I fix this so I don't repeat it?

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Post by Foundryratjim Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:29 am

Soupy44 wrote:So I'm using Photoescape's PTU for 38 WC, the one for Zero bullets since I'm using those bullets. The cases were really rough to get out of it, so I added some one shot. Helped for a few cases, then I had a case head separate.

First, how do I get the brass off?

Second, how do I fix this so I don't repeat it?
I load with these also. I have the never had the case separate though. I would start with removing the powder measure from your press and work area. Then. use a heat gun on high to quickly heat the stuck brass. You might be able to pull it off as the brass will heat up and expand quicker than the ptu. 

If you are cleaning using SS pins others have said that they clean the brass too good and there is no carbon left on to lube the case. You also need to make sure you are only insert the ptu far enough to expand for the zero bullet and no more. You will need to sort your brass as some are not suited for what you are loading due to how they are made.

When I use my sorted brass...I clean wet with pins, and dry the brass. I then put the in a vibrator tumbler with dry media with some liquid auto polish. Every few rounds I lube the ptu with a very small amount of paste bullet lube. I wear surgical gloves when I load lead bullets. The lube I use comes in a tin like paste shoe polish. I just wipe my finger across the tin and rub it on the ptu.

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Post by PhotoEscape Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:00 am

Foundryratjim nailed it.  The only additional suggestion I have is to check your sizing die.  Most sizing dies for 38 SPL come undersized.  FC60 suggested to use sizing die for 38 Super.  Several other users confirmed that it works better.


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Post by Soupy44 Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:31 am

38 super sizing die and tin of wax on the way.  Thanks!

FWIW, I was loading brand new Starline brass.  

I was also using a cloth to put some One Shot on the PTU, but it was not every few cases.  Starting to regret deciding to reload 38 Special!

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Post by SingleActionAndrew Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:58 am

New starline and Photoescape PTUs. I spray a bit of oneshot inside the case, shake and let dry for 20 minutes. On other forums folks have done testing with contaminating powder with oneshot including testing a year later and my perception is that it's a non issue. These are cases without spent or new primers in them of course. Spraying the One Shot inside the case makes checking charges from the PM a pain, as N310 and WST stick quite a bit. But it relieves the hard return stroke coming off of the expander. According to my FX120i my tweaked Dillon PMs drop N310 and WST with an at worst 0.04gr spread so I get the press started with older brass maybe 10 drops in a row where the powder is where I want it, then the fresh and lubed cases come in, with only occasional spot checks because it's so laborious to unstick all the granules from inside the case wall.
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Post by djperry2 Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:29 pm

I mixed up a gallon of Zip wax car wash with about 2 or 3 tbs to a gallon. After wet washing brass with dawn and lemi-shine, rinse well. Then tumble a couple of minutes in the zip wax solution and drain. Let the brass air dry on a towel for a day and the cases are coated with a hard wax inside and out.
The wax mixture is poured back in the jug for next time.
Sizing and expanding is really smooth both on my square deal and single station presses.
Also make sure case mouths are de-burred if new.
It worked for me.
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Post by PhotoEscape Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:17 pm

SingleActionAndrew wrote:New starline and Photoescape PTUs. I spray a bit of oneshot inside the case, shake and let dry for 20 minutes. On other forums folks have done testing with contaminating powder with oneshot including testing a year later and my perception is that it's a non issue. These are cases without spent or new primers in them of course. Spraying the One Shot inside the case makes checking charges from the PM a pain, as N310 and WST stick quite a bit. But it relieves the hard return stroke coming off of the expander. According to my FX120i my tweaked Dillon PMs drop N310 and WST with an at worst 0.04gr spread so I get the press started with older brass maybe 10 drops in a row where the powder is where I want it, then the fresh and lubed cases come in, with only occasional spot checks because it's so laborious to unstick all the granules from inside the case wall.

Let me share the "secret" of weighting powder drops without removing powder from the case.  I'll use XL650 as an example.  Primer seating and powder drop is done on Station 2.  Former on the pushing lever back, latter - by bringing platform up.  I seat primer and remove case.  I place primed case on one of my digital scales (GemPro 250s or FX120i) and zero scale out.  Place case back on station 2 and drop powder (note - once case removed, scale will show negative weight!).  Remove charged case on station 3 and place it on scale again - scale will show powder charge.  Accuracy of the reading is actual charge +/- scale tolerance (0.02 grain for GemPro 250 and 0.01 grain for FX120i.).  I suggest giving (to any digital scale) at least 30 minutes warm up time before start measuring (I actually keep my scales turned on all the time).

IMO (!) Starline brass - I am of opinion that it is not suited for loading 38 WC ammo.  IMO, brass suitable for this caliber should meet two criteria - wall thickness should be in 0.009" - 0.010" and internal tapering should start below 0.625" measuring from case mouth.  At least, I'd recommend using new Starline brass for loading 38 SPL for the first time around, and then use it for 38 WC.  Or at least give it a tumble in walnut shells with addition of car wax / polish before loading for the first time!   I understand that these days getting new brass specific to 38 WC is not possible, and Starline is the "only game in town".   Hence we have to deal with it the best we can.  Many good suggestions in this thread.  

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Post by Soupy44 Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:37 pm

Heat gun got the brass off nicely.

I chucked up the PTU and polished it. That combined with making sure One Shot got inside the case helped a lot. Still a tough up stroke for sure. Hoping the 38 Super sizing die helps!

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Post by sharkdoctor Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:48 am

Re: case sizing for 38 Spl, I haven't used a 38 Super die - nominal case size OD is 0.384" as I recall and would seem too large, even if some are undersized, but I defer to those with experience.

I have used the Lee carbide/crimp die designed to ensure chambering.  Mine sizes outside to 0.379", nominal for 38 Spl.  Inside then is 0.359" or a bit less, depending on brass thickness.  These work great for the oversized Rem HBWC's but others can be a bit loose.

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