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Starter 1911 for EIC

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Froneck
Ghuizing9756
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Post by Ghuizing9756 Sat May 06, 2023 5:35 pm

I am currently on the Naval Academy Service pistol and rifle team, but graduate in a few weeks so I will no longer have access to the team weapons. I am trying to find information on a quality 1911 that I can buy/build for myself so that I may continue competing. Any advice would help. Thank you!

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Post by Froneck Sat May 06, 2023 11:23 pm

I suggest you get the best you can afford. You have the training to shoot so a tack driver is needed. A tack driver will shoot a perfect score so it's you that needs to develop the skill needed to get near perfect as possible. Building it yourself is not advisable since you don't have the tools nor the developed skill to do it! Kuhnhausen book is a waste of time! He was not a gunsmith and knew nothing about building a 1911! He was an Author that interviewed gunsmiths and used what he was told in his books! I've read some of his stuff and found what he said in one section was opposite what he was saying in another.

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Post by NukeMMC Sun May 07, 2023 8:26 am

Ghuizing9756 wrote:I am currently on the Naval Academy Service pistol and rifle team, but graduate in a few weeks so I will no longer have access to the team weapons. I am trying to find information on a quality 1911 that I can buy/build for myself so that I may continue competing. Any advice would help. Thank you!
Where is your first duty after June week?
IS Bill Karditzas still at the Academy?

As a former Navy shooter, please keep in mind that competition with service weapons, unless you are Marine option, is not career enhancing.   Unfortunately, that is what our military has become.

To answer your question, though, keep an eye on the forums and GB for a couple options:
- Springfield Armory Range Officer in either 45 or 9mm.  With addition of a bushing and slide stop from EGW and some tuning of springs, can be made to shoot competitively enough to get you going.  Once you're established, send it to a smith for a good barrel fit and trigger and you're going to have a P100 pistol with ease.  (BTW, the P100 brassard wasn't in Uniform Regs for officers, but I saw plenty wear it, including CDR Howard Walter).

- SA Garrison is essentially a RO but with Novak rear sight.  It's easier to find and can be cheaper.  Just send it for a "Nomar" sight conversion.

- buy a used ball gun already built for the job. A bit of a dice roll, but stick with known builders and you should be fine, at least until you can send it for a tune up.

Good luck, fair winds and following seas.

MMC/SS (ret)
NukeMMC
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Post by SmokinNJokin Sun May 07, 2023 8:31 am

You came to the right place. Lots of military and very good civilian shooters and gunsmiths here. What is your budget? I agree with Frank, get the best you can afford. Buy once, cry once. Use that ensign pay when you commission on something that will last you for many years. The price will only continue to get higher. The only out-of-the box, turnkey pistol that I would recommend is a Rock River NM Hardball 45. Probably around 1700-2200 depending on condition. If you are willing to wait a bit and get one build from scratch (better, get EXACTLY what you want), there are several reputable gunsmiths on this forum who can build you a full-house custom (still service pistol legal) that will have the exact trigger you desire and have options to mount a dot. My 'ultimate service pistol" that I made P100 with is a Springfield Custom Shop NM hardball that I paid $2300 for new about a decade ago, wore out with hardball then had Jon Eulette rebarrel for me. Shoots 1" x10 @50yds after many seasons of service. I currently have it out on loan to another military shooter.

Finally, if you really just need something to keep you in the game for cheap while you save/wait for your ultimate gun to be built, A Springfield Range Officer Target with a new EGW bushing and oversize slide stop and some trigger work will do fine for around $800. Will hold you over. At Navy fleet matches, if you can shoot the minimum 250 cut score it is usually good for an 8-pt leg. Good luck!

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Post by Froneck Sun May 07, 2023 9:00 am

I might add to buying a used gun that was done by well known top gun builders. Be very careful as they tend to bring higher prices. To often I've seem them worked on afterward by someone that didn't know what they were doing and were reduced to bad shooters! If buying one insist on a return or testing! Too often great guns were given to sons, not knowing how to shoot they attempted to fix the problem by working on the gun, not themselves, destroying a great gun! Quite often it would take more work and cost more to repair than purchasing something like an  new RO and having a top bullseye smith convert it into a tack driver. Keep that in mind when buying any used guns, too many have tried to make them shoot better not understanding it was them that needed the fixing.

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Post by Ghuizing9756 Sun May 07, 2023 10:12 am

NukeMMC wrote:
Ghuizing9756 wrote:I am currently on the Naval Academy Service pistol and rifle team, but graduate in a few weeks so I will no longer have access to the team weapons. I am trying to find information on a quality 1911 that I can buy/build for myself so that I may continue competing. Any advice would help. Thank you!
Where is your first duty after June week?
IS Bill Karditzas still at the Academy?

As a former Navy shooter, please keep in mind that competition with service weapons, unless you are Marine option, is not career enhancing.   Unfortunately, that is what our military has become.

To answer your question, though, keep an eye on the forums and GB for a couple options:
- Springfield Armory Range Officer in either 45 or 9mm.  With addition of a bushing and slide stop from EGW and some tuning of springs, can be made to shoot competitively enough to get you going.  Once you're established, send it to a smith for a good barrel fit and trigger and you're going to have a P100 pistol with ease.  (BTW, the P100 brassard wasn't in Uniform Regs for officers, but I saw plenty wear it, including CDR Howard Walter).

- SA Garrison is essentially a RO but with Novak rear sight.  It's easier to find and can be cheaper.  Just send it for a "Nomar" sight conversion.

- buy a used ball gun already built for the job. A bit of a dice roll, but stick with known builders and you should be fine, at least until you can send it for a tune up.

Good luck, fair winds and following seas.

MMC/SS (ret)

I will be heading to Quantico for TBS in August! Also, yessir Coach K is still here! Thank you so much for the options, I will begin looking around for some.

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Post by Ghuizing9756 Sun May 07, 2023 10:21 am

Thank you to all who commented! I now know what to look for in the next few weeks.

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Post by Wobbley Sun May 07, 2023 1:38 pm

If you ask around at Quantico, there is a remnant of a Precision Pistol team, but fundamentally the USMC has all but abandoned Precision Pistol in favor of action pistol.  The USMC Competition in Arms program is almost all “Action pistol” even the EIC.  I know of a USMCR bullseye shooter that had to switch to Action pistol because he had earned all the EIC points allowed for Bullseye under MCR regulations.  Also, it is usually required to use a current service pistol OTHER THAN a M1911 (M45A1).  This leaves a M18 or M9 and of those two I’d go for a M18.   

Now, all that said, certainly there is always a presence of the USMC at Camp Perry shooting Bullseye and for that I’d certainly opt for a 1911.  However, for your MC time I’d get an M18 and go play in the MC shooting world at least for your active duty time.  Also you can play in the bullseye crowd as you’d always be welcomed here.
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Post by Froneck Sun May 07, 2023 2:31 pm

I don't understand how can you earn the max EIC points? When you reach the required number of points and become Distinguished points are no longer awarded. Non- Distinguished shooter only compete for points against other non- Distinguished shooters. I continued to shoot the match after I became distinguished and got the Custer Medals but they are not awarded to Military, it's awarded to top 10% of the civilian shooters that enter the match.  I have a pile of them, my guess is about 20. Only thing is that you compete for the top prize and being the military shooters like the AMU are the top shooters the only awards available are High Civillian. High Woman or High Junior. Plus you can continue to shoot in the Service team events. From what I was told the Marines dropped out of Bullseye because they were not winning, The AMU was kicking their butts, even civilian teams were beating them. Marines that do compete do so on their own dime. Also told that the Navy and Coast Guard shoot the same as the Marines. National Guard might have some funding, I don't know! As far as I know the reserve teams are no longer funded either.


Last edited by Froneck on Sun May 07, 2023 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Wobbley Sun May 07, 2023 3:18 pm

Froneck, the shooter in question was told by his command that further points towards EIC from Bullseye would not count towards the USMC badge he wanted… so he had to switch to action.
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Post by NukeMMC Sun May 07, 2023 3:21 pm

The services run their EIC programs per their own Regs, the Marines use Maradmins (441/22) to administer their EIC program. The Navy had OPNAVINST 3590.26. If a service member earns points at a CMP match, the CMP only "recommends" those points to the service.
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Post by adminbot1911 Sun May 07, 2023 9:17 pm

Wobbley wrote:Froneck, the shooter in question was told by his command that further points towards EIC from Bullseye would not count towards the USMC badge he wanted… so he had to switch to action.

The issue is not really with the discipline, but with the "tier" of competition.  "Local" and "other service" points are limited by regulation for USMC competitors to a maximum of 10.  They can get these 10 points competing against the Navy, at their local BE civilian match, or in one of the intramurals that occur annually at each of the Divisions.  Please don't interpret "tier" as "caliber" of competition, I find civilian competition to be particularly stiff no matter the circuit.

10 points must be attained from USMC competition.  Most often, these are gained at the "division" level. 

10 points may be achieved at upper echelon of competition, such as championships, interservice, or nationals.
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Post by SmokinNJokin Tue May 09, 2023 7:11 am

Active Army does the same thing. Only 14 points can be from civilian matches (this includes other service matches, such as the navy fleet matches) and since eic matches are very, very rarely conducted by units (I have never seen it in 16+years) our only options to finish off the last 16 points are Perry and All-Army. Reserves and Guard are lucky because they have Winston P. Wilson AND can attend All-Army (and usually dominate!).

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