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Camp Perry or Camp Atterbury?

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Post by BE Mike 7/15/2023, 9:44 am

In a few years, after the dust settles, where will most pistol shooters end up shooting the biggest match of the year?
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Post by RoyDean 7/15/2023, 11:00 am

The AMU will not be attending Atterbury this year - that decision alone kinda forecasts the future. Not to mention the relative attendance numbers. Many folks are predicting that Atterbury will be cancelled within a year or two.

I have no "axe to grind". Just sharing info heard at Cardinal, Canton and Perry.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew 7/15/2023, 11:06 am

I'll be at Atterbury, so there's that Very Happy

I hope NRA is still around in a couple years. That's my chief concern about its longetivity
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Post by chiz1180 7/15/2023, 11:14 am

Atterbury will likely not ever have the P100, NTI or NTT. That is a big deciding factor for many. From my experience this year shooting the Service Revolver Match, 22EIC, and  the 2700, the CMP Range staff did a good job running the show despite lots of impinging factors outside their control (Coast Guard search on 22 Day, weather concerns, ect.). They also are proactively making changes to make the match better, after everyone figured out the process on prelim day, the two target lines with one set of benches was awesome.

I unfortunately had work constraints that kept me from shooting the Trophy Match day, so I can not speak for how that portion of the match went. I'm not shooting Atterbury either, hard to justify a multiple day 2700 that has little to offer other than the NRA name in front of it.
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Post by Poacher92 7/26/2023, 3:31 pm

RoyDean wrote:The AMU will not be attending Atterbury this year - that decision alone kinda forecasts the future. Not to mention the relative attendance numbers. Many folks are predicting that Atterbury will be cancelled within a year or two.

I have no "axe to grind". Just sharing info heard at Cardinal, Canton and Perry.
Jon Shue said during the competitor meeting at Camp Atterbury this year the AMU didn't come because they were out of money. Budget cuts also prevented the National Guard teams from coming as well. That was a big chunk of the lost attendance this year. But there were several top shooters that chose to show up...Jon Shue, John Zurek, Phil Hemphill, John Bickar, Travis Jorgenson, Jordan Kramp, Dan Kupar, David Lange, etc. They all showed up because they care about the sport and seeing the tradition continue. 

A lot of the 'complaints' if you will at the competitor meeting this year were all in that same vane. People want to see continued improvement so more people show up. It is a great range that has slowly made gains with more coming next year. Local area around Camp Atterbury has a lot to offer in the way of food, shopping and other amenities and are as close or closer than Port Clinton and Sandusky.

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Post by RoyDean 7/26/2023, 4:10 pm

I for one enjoyed shooting Atterbury this year. It was much better run than previous years, possibly simply because most of the bugs had already been worked out and having the new admin building close by must have been positive. The weather was very kind too.

As for the lack of P100 and NTI. There could be another way, but it might not be palatable to certain folks. Maybe make Atterbury a 4 gun event (like Cardinal) with a full 900 for Service Pistol. The NMC could be a "paper" SP EIC. Followed by a SP Team match, same as for the 22, CF and 45 AGG's. I would prefer that instead of the Prelim Match to be honest.

For the good of the sport, let's hope that numbers increase in future. But, I must say that having just one relay does make everyone's life easier.

There is one truism - it is impossible to please everyone!

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Post by PhotoEscape 7/26/2023, 4:37 pm

One aspect that makes me more inclined participating in NRA National match (and other NRA sanctioned matches too) boils down to the fact that CMP's only takes to consideration top performers in particular categories, i.e. overall top Score, top Junior, top woman, top senior, top grand senior, etc...  Subsequently, top in the class shooters, i.e. top master, top expert, etc. are SOL as they compete against high masters.  Unless there is a miracle, and master or expert shoots top high master level score, there is not chance for any kind recognition.  NRA's approach, IMHO, is more fair as in addition to winning in particular category, there is also winning in class - top master, top sharpshooter, etc.  That provides for one competing against shooters of the same level, and I think, it is more appropriate.  

My 2 cents.

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Post by Jon Eulette 7/26/2023, 5:02 pm

I used to shoot international pistol events as well as bullseye. International team matches were paper matches. Three shooters chosen for the team and find out later how you placed. I think this was acceptable for 60 shot course of fire. But I always lived for the team matches at Perry every year (NMC). I remember winning my first national championship team match. We were a team not expected to win. I remember our team shooting and performing well. It was exciting and we were acting/performing as a team. It was AWESOME to find out we won the match.
And I remember shooting an International Centerfire match at a US Team selection match. I shot a 588 and won the match. Felt pretty good about it. Later saw we won the three man team CF match. Glad but being a paper match I didn't know who I was teamed up with until after the match was over. We set a new national record and didn't find out until we received the results in the mail. It paled in comparison to the team match shot at Perry.

So I'm in favor of shooting actual team match and not going the paper match route.
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Post by RoyDean 7/26/2023, 5:22 pm

JE. I get it. I propose SP EIC be a paper match within Service Pistol 900. I agree that separate team NMC's are important.

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Post by john bickar 7/26/2023, 7:29 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I used to shoot international pistol events as well as bullseye. International team matches were paper matches. Three shooters chosen for the team and find out later how you placed. I think this was acceptable for 60 shot course of fire. But I always lived for the team matches at Perry every year (NMC). I remember winning my first national championship team match. We were a team not expected to win. I remember our team shooting and performing well. It was exciting and we were acting/performing as a team. It was AWESOME to find out we won the match.
And I remember shooting an International Centerfire match at a US Team selection match. I shot a 588 and won the match. Felt pretty good about it. Later saw we won the three man team CF match. Glad but being a paper match I didn't know who I was teamed up with until after the match was over. We set a new national record and didn't find out until we received the results in the mail. It paled in comparison to the team match shot at Perry.

So I'm in favor of shooting actual team match and not going the paper match route.
Jon

More than one person heard me say over the past few weeks, "I came here to do two things: shoot team matches, and chew bubblegum. And I'm all out of bubblegum." (There may have been an expletive in there, depending on when someone heard me say it.)

I made the trip East for the team matches. Individual accolades were secondary.
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Post by chiz1180 7/26/2023, 7:57 pm

RoyDean wrote:As for the lack of P100 and NTI. There could be another way, but it might not be palatable to certain folks. Maybe make Atterbury a 4 gun event (like Cardinal) with a full 900 for Service Pistol. The NMC could be a "paper" SP EIC. Followed by a SP Team match, same as for the 22, CF and 45 AGG's. I would prefer that instead of the Prelim Match to be honest.
Roy, a key match you are missing is the NTT, people go to Perry for the week just to prepare for that match. You can also not have a paper EIC match per the rules, it is required to be a separate thing.

AP,
The CMP does report results per classification for the Pistol Championship, you just need to know where to look. If you go to competition tracker, 2023 Trophy Pistol match & CMP Pistol Championships, class results can be found under 'CMP Pistol 2700 Classification'. Not sure how this played out at the awards ceremony, I was not able to make it this year. The reality of most matches in this day in age is that it is difficult to have enough shooters to have representation in all the classes with the exception of the larger matches of course.

In regards to team matches, in my opinion they can be a great tool for coaching new shooters. For example in 2019 (the year I started shooting) for the NRA team matches at Perry, I was on a team with Jack Adams, (he won the Sectional that year with an 894). That experience was key to for some quick growth in my shooting ability and desire to pursue the game to a higher level. Though I realize that most people approach teams as pairing the best shooters together to get the highest agg. 

If Attaburry wants to improve and grow, they need to stop trying to be what they were at Perry and be their own new unique match. As mentioned their were a lot of top shooters this year, most of them have been at this longer than I have been alive. If the tradition of the match is to be kept alive, you need to do everything you can to make it accessible to the next generation. I know for the group of people in my age group (Mid 20s to mid 30s) taking a weeks vacation to shoot a match is hard, especially if you have a family, run a business, ect. I am not sure if any Junior shooters were even at the match at all, which is sad. If the match were a Saturday/Sunday match or even a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, it would be easier to justify even if entries had to be limited such that they could only run one relay (would eliminate the relay 1 had better conditions than relay 2).
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Post by RoyDean 7/26/2023, 8:07 pm

Chris. Sorry, but I already stated above that I agree that team match is important and should not be just "paper". Please read thread above.

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Post by chiz1180 7/26/2023, 8:26 pm

RoyDean wrote:Chris. Sorry, but I already stated above that I agree that team match is important and should not be just "paper". Please read thread above.
I saw that but I wanted to highlight the NTT specifically for all to consider as it often is over looked.
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Post by Wobbley 7/26/2023, 10:34 pm

One very powerful reason that the Team match is always a fired match is that is the major rationale for having the Service Teams.  For them TEAM shooting is far more important than individual match.  There’s bragging rights at stake.
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Post by 641 7/29/2023, 12:09 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
RoyDean wrote:As for the lack of P100 and NTI. There could be another way, but it might not be palatable to certain folks. Maybe make Atterbury a 4 gun event (like Cardinal) with a full 900 for Service Pistol. The NMC could be a "paper" SP EIC. Followed by a SP Team match, same as for the 22, CF and 45 AGG's. I would prefer that instead of the Prelim Match to be honest.
Roy, a key match you are missing is the NTT, people go to Perry for the week just to prepare for that match. You can also not have a paper EIC match per the rules, it is required to be a separate thing.

AP,
The CMP does report results per classification for the Pistol Championship, you just need to know where to look. If you go to competition tracker, 2023 Trophy Pistol match & CMP Pistol Championships, class results can be found under 'CMP Pistol 2700 Classification'. Not sure how this played out at the awards ceremony, I was not able to make it this year. The reality of most matches in this day in age is that it is difficult to have enough shooters to have representation in all the classes with the exception of the larger matches of course.

In regards to team matches, in my opinion they can be a great tool for coaching new shooters. For example in 2019 (the year I started shooting) for the NRA team matches at Perry, I was on a team with Jack Adams, (he won the Sectional that year with an 894). That experience was key to for some quick growth in my shooting ability and desire to pursue the game to a higher level. Though I realize that most people approach teams as pairing the best shooters together to get the highest agg. 

If Attaburry wants to improve and grow, they need to stop trying to be what they were at Perry and be their own new unique match. As mentioned their were a lot of top shooters this year, most of them have been at this longer than I have been alive. If the tradition of the match is to be kept alive, you need to do everything you can to make it accessible to the next generation. I know for the group of people in my age group (Mid 20s to mid 30s) taking a weeks vacation to shoot a match is hard, especially if you have a family, run a business, ect. I am not sure if any Junior shooters were even at the match at all, which is sad. If the match were a Saturday/Sunday match or even a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, it would be easier to justify even if entries had to be limited such that they could only run one relay (would eliminate the relay 1 had better conditions than relay 2).
The CMP is also issuing classification cards, much like the NRA...after enough matches have been shot.  One is then competing against others with similar skills..
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