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Does anyone still shoot factory 185 metal Case SWC?

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Jack H
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Does anyone still shoot factory 185 metal Case SWC? Empty Does anyone still shoot factory 185 metal Case SWC?

Post by RJaquith Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:12 am

confused
I've been trying to do some searching on the value of some Factory .45 185 wadcutter, and can't seem to find anything using the search function; has it fallen out of favor and totally been supplanted by the lead reloads?

Randy

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Post by bmize1 Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:18 am

I traded into 20 boxes of Fed Monarch from the 70’s. Nice clean boxes.
He couldn’t sell it at $15 a box and we traded for something worth $200.

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Post by Wobbley Mon Jul 17, 2023 11:56 am

Federal still load it or did a few years ago.  But I never found it to be better than my reloads generally.  I have some Winchesters and some Hornady. But I haven’t shot any recently.
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Post by RJaquith Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:22 pm

Thanks for the quick responses - guess it's just plinkin' ammo now Crying or Very sad

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Post by Allgoodhits Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:51 pm

RJaquith wrote:Thanks for the quick responses - guess it's just plinkin' ammo now Crying or Very sad
Randy

Message me quantity, brand etc. and price. I may be able to place it for you.
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Post by Ed Hall Mon Jul 17, 2023 2:43 pm

Remington is the only one I know of that is still selling those style bullets.  Here's Midway's offering:

Remington Match Bullets 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) 185 Grain Full Metal Jacket Truncated Cone

(Or, are you meaning cartridges, in which case Federal Gold Medal uses them?)

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Post by bruce martindale Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:35 pm

My understanding was the military stopped buying it along with use of 45 pistol. Winchester sold the whole production line to IMI who has since also discontinued it. It was good stuff but l didn’t find it better than SOME reloads. I bought some at Canton a few years ago for $20. Someone was trying to sell it this week for $45. Nope.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew Mon Jul 17, 2023 4:45 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Remington is the only one I know of that is still selling those style bullets.  Here's Midway's offering:

Remington Match Bullets 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) 185 Grain Full Metal Jacket Truncated Cone

(Or, are you meaning cartridges, in which case Federal Gold Medal uses them?)
Do we know if the bullets are still made? Midway says discontinued. I'd love a steady supply.
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Post by fc60 Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:45 pm

Greetings,

From a manufacturing viewpoint, the jacketed 185 Hollow Points are as accurate; or, more accurate than the older FMJWC bullets from Winchester, Remington, or Hornady.

Look at the rifle shooters. Match Ball Ammo was loaded with a 172 grain FMJ bullet. It shot okay at 600 yards. Then, Sierra was contracted to load M852 Match ammo with their 168 grain Hollow Point bullet. Accuracy was much better.

To form a full metal patch bullet is more difficult than a hollow point. The hollow point cups are draw to incredible tolerances and seating the cores and forming the points is a much more uniform process.

More accuracy thoughts.

We quizzed a top Marine shooter who got to chose what lot numbers of ammo the Marines would buy after testing. The "Big Three" would submit sample lots to the Military for testing. Some lots shot extremely well and those lots were bought up entirely.

What about the ammo the Military rejected, we asked the Marine?  Well, Dave, I can assure you they do not use a bullet puller and start over. Those rejected lots end up in the civilian market.

All the 185 grain FMJWC ammo I gleaned from Military shooters shot X-ring! The same brand I bought from Gil Hebard, different lot number, shot ten-ring.

I agree with Mr. Martindale. We can load better 50 yard ammo at home.

Thanks for reading. Film at 11.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by Wobbley Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:22 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

From a manufacturing viewpoint, the jacketed 185 Hollow Points are as accurate; or, more accurate than the older FMJWC bullets from Winchester, Remington, or Hornady.

Look at the rifle shooters. Match Ball Ammo was loaded with a 172 grain FMJ bullet. It shot okay at 600 yards. Then, Sierra was contracted to load M852 Match ammo with their 168 grain Hollow Point bullet. Accuracy was much better.

Thanks for reading. Film at 11.

Cheers,

Dave
When I shot M1A Highpower, the M118 172 Match loaded in the 1960s was pretty decent stuff.  Certainly capable of 195+ at 600.  By 1977, the machinery and process was just worn out and shooting at 600 with M118 172 FMJ was an experience best not repeated. Thus came the impetus for M852.
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Post by Ed Hall Tue Jul 18, 2023 7:16 am

SingleActionAndrew wrote:Do we know if the bullets are still made? Midway says discontinued. I'd love a steady supply.
I don't know the availability.  The OP was looking for value, as I read it.  The product says out of stock for 100 and 1000, but discontinued for 500.  As to loading, I moved to FMJHP (Nosler/Zero) for all my match loads long ago, although I did have a recipe for the Remington bullet.

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Post by bruce martindale Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:31 pm

Which was what please? I was loading 4.6 BE but with Rem cases because the bullet is oversized slightly.
Thanks

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Post by fc60 Tue Jul 18, 2023 12:52 pm

Greetings,

An image from yesteryear...

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by RJaquith Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:07 pm

Guess I'm just too out of touch - I never thought that this or Federal 45B would be worth less than $0.30 per round Rolling Eyes
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Post by RJaquith Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:11 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,


More accuracy thoughts.

We quizzed a top Marine shooter who got to chose what lot numbers of ammo the Marines would buy after testing. The "Big Three" would submit sample lots to the Military for testing. Some lots shot extremely well and those lots were bought up entirely.

What about the ammo the Military rejected, we asked the Marine?  Well, Dave, I can assure you they do not use a bullet puller and start over. Those rejected lots end up in the civilian market.

All the 185 grain FMJWC ammo I gleaned from Military shooters shot X-ring! The same brand I bought from Gil Hebard, different lot number, shot ten-ring.

Cheers,

Dave
Does that apply to all the mil-pac (cans of military wadcutter), or just the lots that the big teams used?

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Post by Wobbley Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:23 pm

If it was made as “Military” ammo (in military cases with military markings on the boxes) then there is a high probability it is nothing particularly special.  Some was very special stuff but that wasn’t common.  What Dave is talking about was the practice in the 60s and 70s when the Army and Marine teams really fought tooth and nail.  They had the buying power to get preferential choice at the big 3.  That wasn’t necessarily that they bought ALL of the best lots, but they sure didn’t buy any of the marginal lots.  The rest got sold to us,
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Post by RJaquith Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:33 pm

Does that mean boxes like the one I posted above, packed in  USGI M2A1 ammo cans, 1000 to a can, 2 cans to a wooden crate, DODAC A482, is the good stuff, or the also-rans?

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Post by Chase Turner Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:53 pm

Randy,

You might have some luck selling these to cartridge collectors- but I have no sense of how that works or who to ask.

If these came as you describe and the provenance is known, then I think they'd be worth something- but I don't think you'll get new prices for it (I could be completely wrong here, hoss). But without knowing the kind of lot this was, I don't know that today's shooters would want to take a chance on it at a premium price. Cartridge collectors may.

Winchester did a run of wadcutter ammo somewhere in 2015-2017, if I recall correctly. One of the service teams was shooting some, and used it for the short line only. I inferred that this meant the loads weren't great at 50 yards. This load wasn't available on the shelf, so far as I know, so no idea of what price it would have been if new.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

-Chase

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Post by RJaquith Tue Jul 18, 2023 2:05 pm

Thanks, Chase

This stuff goes back to at least the early 2000 time that I can testify to; going by box design according to the internet, it/s probably somewhere between 1962 (has child warning, but no Zip Code [1963] in the address), and the early '70s, when they switched to the white box.

Randy

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Post by Wobbley Tue Jul 18, 2023 2:13 pm

They are commercial lot packed in military can and crating.  That means the lot was accepted into the military for marksmanship purposes.  Likely for the military team.  From the yellow box, this was made about in the mid-late 1960s maybe early 1970s.  Certainly before 1972.  One other thing to remember too is that there was a LOT more interest in shooting at all levels of the military until about 1968.  So there was more demand from the services for match ammo including SWC.  So it may have been for the AMU or Marine or AF or Navy team but it might have just been a general purchase to support the military marksmanship training program.   Almost every major command back then had a shooting team… All this ended in 1968 or 1969 due to the negative reaction to the Vietnam war and the assassinations amongst other reasons.
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Post by fc60 Tue Jul 18, 2023 4:14 pm

RJaquith wrote:Does that mean boxes like the one I posted above, packed in  USGI M2A1 ammo cans, 1000 to a can, 2 cans to a wooden crate, DODAC A482, is the good stuff, or the also-rans?
Greetings,

If I had a choice between Military issue or Commercial, I would buy Military.

I do not have documented sources for Military accuracy acceptance; but, I recall reading in the American Rifleman that HardBall had to group three inches, or less, for three ten shot groups at 50 yards.

I suspect there is a similar Acceptance Document issued when they purchase ammo from the Commercial suppliers.

One way to find out if it, your ammo, is any good or not is to test it.

Either find a shooter with a good gun and an expert using the Random Rest; or, someone with a barrel/ammo tester.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Jul 18, 2023 5:33 pm

Federal Match 185 JSWC red & white box early 90’s; US Army Reserve Team issued ammunition.
Ransom Tested by me. Pistol built by me. Routinely saw groups like this at 50 yds.
Does anyone still shoot factory 185 metal Case SWC? Img_2820
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Post by bruce martindale Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:59 am

Chase, is that the WMA 15 headstamp?

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Post by Chase Turner Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:08 pm

The overwhelming majority I've seen is WMA 17. Believe I have also seen WMA 15 and WMA 20, but nothing like the amount of WMA 17 in my horde.

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Post by Jack H Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:29 pm

Does anyone still shoot factory 185 metal Case SWC? 185_Hornady
One third of my stash.  I intend to shoot them someday.


Last edited by Jack H on Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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