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Tisas for As-Issued Competition

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Wobbley
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Post by rckendall Sat Jan 20, 2024 4:49 pm

I've read several places about the popularity of Tisas pistols being used in the as-issued class for CMP (?) events. I'm not really interested in taking part in these matches but I am curious about the particular model, if there is one. All I know is 1911A1, if that is correct. I could see one of these being a project type gun. 

Thanks,
Richard

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Post by jglenn21 Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:55 am

Their basic a1 is a government  model with the small sights. For right around $300 it's.simply the best basic 1911 out there. Crazy good slide fit. Forged frame and slide.. zero mem parts. One or two cast parts. Machining is excellent as is the cetakote.finish The only fault I could find is a rather small feed ramp on the frame which doesn't seem to affect feeding and a rear sight that is dang near Impossible to get off.. the frame does like a 220 radius grip safety but they do sell their own grip safety(which fits very well) on the SDS web site. SDS is the importer.
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Post by jglenn21 Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:10 am

They do offer a government style slide with better fixed sights for $99 on the SDS site. The slides fit perfectly on their receivers
 Very tight fit. I bought two for my nephews pistols, parkerized them and then applied armorers black cerekote to match the factory finish. The original slide will most likely become a wad gun slide.
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Post by Froneck Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:44 am

Problem is what is as issued? Service pistol started as as issued, very little changes to the gun were allowed. Same thing with out of the box requirements. Some years ago a few Police matches required out of the box, a dealer bought as many S&W revolvers as he could, had them tested then sold those that shot the best at premium price. Another was some time ago the brass were angry that when they competed with other Armies from different countries rack grade pistols were required but other countries had better pistols than the rack grade Beretta 9mm so they constantly lost. So they got a truck load of them and tested them all, selected the best, won the match!

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Post by jglenn21 Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:08 pm

CMP has fairly specific rules on the pistols as it's unique to their CMP games... pistols are inspected also.  

Still have to shoot well enough to win Tisas for As-Issued Competition 1f600
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Post by Froneck Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:52 pm

Yes I know skill is most important to good shooting. You can't buy a score! But the problem with out of the box rules is it's hard to make it so that everyone is using the same gun. Taking a loose out of the box 1911 and squeezing it in a vise will improve the group, will soon loosen but it will be better than loosey goosey. Again the reasons why off the shelf guns don't shoot well is because of manufacturing tolerance. Most of the time the tolerance combines to make an average gun BUT some times they will combine to make a great gun or very bad!
 What happen is the new shooter thinking he can compete with a lower cost gun will be at a disadvantage to a good shooter with a gun that has been worked on so that the improvements are not detectable of buy one of those that the tolerance combined to make an accurate gun.

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Post by rich.tullo Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:50 pm

Glad to see Glenn approves of these I had the chance to handle one last year and I was impressed. I did not know the parts were not mim. I can see not reason why the Tisa would be a great base gun.
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Post by ptf18 Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:03 pm

Which model Tisas are we talking about? I was "thinking" the of the Tisas Service Special in 45ACP as an entry level NRA/CMP  Bullseye pistol that I "might" have an interest in. I'd have a set of adjustable sights installed.

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Post by tovaert Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:10 am

The A1 service .45, A1 Patriot .45, A1 US Army .45, Service Special .45, and perhaps the Volunteer .45? The SDS website has these listed but I'm not certain what the differences are and whether all of them are available. I've seen the A1 US Army .45 on sale locally for $399. On GB as low as $250. In reading the typically-nebulous CMP (words like "generally" or "spirit" or "intent") "as-issued" rules, it's not clear what can be done to the pistol, other than replace the barrel. I would not show up to Perry and fire a gun that could not hold the aiming black at 50 yards. Can you replace a bushing and slide stop with a commercial equivalent? Is that considered "match conditioning"? There is also mention of as-issued "police" pistols...can a 1911 be considered in that category and if so what would one look like? Could it have a beavertail grip safety? Fiber-optic front sight? If so then the Duty .45 model looks pretty enticing. A few years ago I built an inexpensive carbine AR for the (new) Modern Military games match. It had weight limits. Then the next year the CMP changed the rules allowing a full-blown AR service rifle to compete in the "unlimited" category. I'm reluctant to buy anything until there are more clarifications. My experience is that the clarifications often come through as private emails.

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Post by Froneck Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:07 pm

I don't know much about the Tisas, I'm sure it is as good as those that have one say it is. BUT it's production and as I mentioned manufacturing tolerance can result is a really good gun or very bad, the reason they made lemon laws for cars. Years ago the service 1911 was used for service competition and needed to be as issued but the military armorers did work on therm. The chances of getting a 1911 out of the box that will shoot good at 50 yards is rare! Those rules are intended to entice new shooter into the sport. Quite often you hear new shooter say the don't shoot as good as the top shooters because they have better guns! That's not true! Good shooter have better guns so they can compete against other good shooters with good shooting guns. Standard parts can be used but proper fitting is what is needed to make a gun shoot good.

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Post by Wobbley Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:38 pm

As a concept, the “as issued” would indicate that it would be a 1911 or 1911A1 as built during the military production during 1911 thru 1945 or so.  These would have fixed sights and the lack of some features like lowered ejection ports. How persnickety the CMP and participants are is undetermined.  However, in my mind, if we start “gaming” the rules, the spirit will end.
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Post by jglenn21 Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:52 pm

CMP games rules...

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2024-CMP-Games-Rules.pdf

as issued pistol starts on page 71

enjoy 😊
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Post by Froneck Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

I don't see anywhere in the rules that if taken to a knowledgeable gun smith the "out of box" gun can't be accurized! Yes it will have as issued non simply adjustable sights but they are adjustable ("would require tools and special effort") Sear and hammer hooks can be stoned, who could determine if they were? Slide put in the vise and squeezed. In other words the out of the box can be made into a tack driver.
 So anyone thinking they could go to their local gun store and buy a ready for competition stock untouched gun is mistaken! Years ago service pistol had similar rules, they even issued the 230gr ball ammo! Over time rules were relaxed to level the playing field, the Gold Cup National match was not allowed in the National Match until 1982.
 That type match is done only to entice new shooter that think that it's the gun that makes top shooter shoot good.

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Post by Allen Barnett Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:29 pm

The "As Issued" match is shot at only 25 yards.  So, the need for a 50 yard tack driver is not required but it better hold the black at 25 yards and you better be able to shoot good one handed from your weak arm!!!

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Post by Froneck Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:58 am

I don't see in the rules that the "weak arm" had has to be used. What I see is right or left hand one hand and that 2 hands are acceptable. Understand one hand will not be a problem for a good shooter even if needed to shoot with the "weak arm" My son Adam is 2650 with both hands, won the match is Florida with the right hand, then won the same match the following year left hand! He also set a record in Bianchi match in the iron sight and won the production too! They do require "weak arm" shooting!

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Post by PMcfall Fri Jan 26, 2024 12:38 pm

At my age, all my arms are weak:)
Phil
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Post by Rush223 Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:21 pm

Table 11 list the course of Fire for As Issue. 

   10 sighters, either or both hands, 5 min. Not for score
1) 10 shots, either or both hands, 5 min
2) 10 shots Left handed, 5 min
3) 10 shots Right handed, 5 min
4) 10 shots either or both hands. Load 5 and reload 5 in 70 seconds

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Post by Froneck Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:27 pm

Oh OK My bad! I didn't read very much as to the course of fire. However my point is that the gun doesn't make a shooter good. It's the skill the shooter has developed to produce a good shot and he wants the gun to accurately demonstrate that skill. To do what is needed to shoot an X yet have the error in the gun produce a 7 is not what a good shooter wants. Therefore will have what ever the rules allow done to the gun to eliminate gun error!

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Post by John B Fowler Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:08 pm

Hi guys.  FWIW, The TISAS 1911A1 US Army has been sold here in NW Ohio for $319.99 in the waterproof case with two Checkmate magazines, a cleaning brush and bushing wrench.  The one with the blank left side of the slide and US Property marked on the right side of the receiver is a 98% match for a WW2 Remington 1911A1 and has the GI small ejection port and original no projection ejector.  It is parkerized, their other pistols are coated.  I bought one, the only issues I noted with it are the recoil spring plug doesn't have the C cut in the side to retain the recoil spring, the rear base of the frame has a slight curve to it, the firing pin retainer was a bit narrow on its right side.  Trigger lifted 5lbs, 4 minimum is the rule.  Fed 230 grain ball from both mags fine and with a lighter recoil spring it ran them and some ancient 185 lead SWCs with 4.0 Bullseye.  Holds the black on the B8 if I do my part which I didn't this year at Perry.  CMP armorers were happy with it.  I plan to switch the left grip panel to a period correct sweetheart grip with a hot brunette pictured, hopefully that will pass.  Distance is 25 yds for the match.  As a tanker and later MP I've run a variety of issue 1911s and A1s since 1970 and this is the nicest and closest of the reproductions I've seen.  As Turkey's economy is starting to recover somewhat, these will likely be increasing in price so look now if you think you might want one.  Also the case is darn nice and typically gets discounted to about $15 on the website.

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