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Lets Strir the CMP Pot

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dronning
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Lets Strir the CMP Pot Empty Lets Strir the CMP Pot

Post by DavidR Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:02 am

OK, here goes, don't shoot the messenger, all hear say but from a good source, hope its not true myself lol!

 I heard this straight from  members of the SCNG shooting team at the regional last weekend: As of Jan.1 2015.  the CMP is throwing out all restrictions on service pistols, any safety, any hammer, any grip safety and even ambi saftys and any 45, basically any wad gun with open sights is legal but you can even use  a glock,sig,hk or whatever along with any safe ammo that is a FMJ, even hollow points and you can shoot 5 matches + perry instead of 3, like I said this is not from me but several members of the scng told this. What a Face
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Post by jmdavis Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:18 am

I had heard the rumor of most of that before with the exception of any safe ammo including hollow points. I didn't notice that part in the proposed rules. But I might have missed it. 

Maybe it will get more people shooting. There were 22 non-distinguished shooting the CMP EIC match at the Creedmoor Cup in NC last year. That compares 95 shooting the Rifle EIC match.
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Post by jmdavis Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:31 am

What I want to know about is the .22lr Distinguished program. Was that approved, killed or tabled?
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Post by DeweyHales Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:48 am

I'm ready for it to get started. The rumor I've heard is a bit different. I've heard four matches plus Perry. 

In my area, I can shoot Quantico, Eastern Games, the Regional, and the State Championships. Next year, I hope to shoot all of them for scores. The best preparation for big matches is big matches.
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Post by farmboy Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:34 pm

DavidR wrote:OK, here goes, don't shoot the messenger, all hear say but from a good source, hope its not true myself lol!

 I heard this straight from  members of the SCNG shooting team at the regional last weekend: As of Jan.1 2015.  the CMP is throwing out all restrictions on service pistols, any safety, any hammer, any grip safety and even ambi saftys and any 45, basically any wad gun with open sights is legal but you can even use  a glock,sig,hk or whatever along with any safe ammo that is a FMJ, even hollow points and you can shoot 5 matches + perry instead of 3, like I said this is not from me but several members of the scng told this. What a Face
What will be the trigger requirements does that stay the same?
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Lets Strir the CMP Pot Empty Proposed CMP Pistol Program Changes

Post by Richard Ashmore Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:50 am

DavidR wrote:OK, here goes, don't shoot the messenger, all hear say but from a good source, hope its not true myself lol!

 I heard this straight from  members of the SCNG shooting team at the regional last weekend: As of Jan.1 2015.  the CMP is throwing out all restrictions on service pistols, any safety, any hammer, any grip safety and even ambi saftys and any 45, basically any wad gun with open sights is legal but you can even use  a glock,sig,hk or whatever along with any safe ammo that is a FMJ, even hollow points and you can shoot 5 matches + perry instead of 3, like I said this is not from me but several members of the scng told this. What a Face

 You're way behind the curve on this.  See http://www.odcmp.com/competitions/Forms/ProposedCMPPistolProgramChanges.pdf

  The comment period ended in July, and the decision was made in September.
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Post by JayhawkNavy02 Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:01 am

I'm sure Dave is already aware of the comment period.  I believe he's giving all of us a "tipper" of some of the more contentious changes that were proposed and may be acted on in the 2015 rulebook.
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Post by dronning Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:13 am

Richard Ashmore wrote:
.....................
  The comment period ended in July, and the decision was made in September.


They were suppose to make the decision in Sept.  I posted a request for information  a while back on the CMP Rules thread on the CMP Foum and haven't gotten an official response yet.

- Dave



Update - looks like the final decision won't be made/announced until December.


Last edited by dronning on Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:01 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : new info)
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Post by james r chapman Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:12 am

At my club the new age shooters are hoping for 2 hand, 7 yd timed rapid fire and 15 yd slowfire all on bigger targets!
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Post by JayhawkNavy02 Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:57 am

dronning wrote:
Richard Ashmore wrote:
.....................
  The comment period ended in July, and the decision was made in September.


They were suppose to make the decision in Sept.  I posted a request for information  a while back on the CMP Rules thread on the CMP Foum and haven't gotten an official response yet.

- Dave



Update - looks like the final decision won't be made/announced until December.

That's the same word I got from some some retired AMU guys.  All of that is speculation I suppose.


james r chapman wrote:At my club the new age shooters are hoping for 2 hand, 7 yd timed rapid fire and 15 yd slowfire all on bigger targets! 

Awesome!  Bullseye is merging with USPSA!
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Post by BE Mike Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:20 am

Shooters and in particular, bullseye pistol shooters are, the biggest rumor mongers in the world. While at a local sporting goods store I heard one fellow, while looking at guns say, "Obama is going to tax ammo at 100%" or some such nonsense. That's one of the reasons for ammo and reloading component shortages. I can't tell you how many times, while at Camp Perry, someone said that this would be the last year for the nationals there.
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Post by jmdavis Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:37 am

In this case, we have the proposed changes, so we have an idea of the range of options. We know that there is a problem with falling attendence as evidenced at the Nationals, at Regionals and at State Championships. There will be change.
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Post by DavidR Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:09 am

Like I said this was from the SCNG team, don't know who told them but this wasn't just some guy standing behind me at the piggley wiggley Laughing
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Post by jmdavis Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:21 am

Do they have Piggly Wiggly in GA?
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Post by dronning Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:18 am

The 5 + Perry will be a big deal locally because we have competitors that won't shoot the local match because they don't want to "waste" their EIC match eligibility for the 3 big matches + Perry they plan to attend.  

- Dave
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Post by jmdavis Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:20 am

I didn't even think about the result of improving the attendence at smaller local EIC matches.
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Post by DavidR Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:30 am

jmdavis wrote:Do they have Piggly Wiggly in GA?

yes a few mostly in rural areas in the north of the state, we saw a bunch in SC
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Post by DavidR Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:33 am

IMO, All the changes are in hopes of building a bigger shooter base, might have something to do with that mega complex that they are opening spring of 2015, as with most things if you follow it far enough it always ends with dollar bills.
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Post by Colt711 Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:27 pm

"Mega Complex". Is that what is being built @ Talladega?

It seems NRA Bullsye was always the feeder for EIC? Is that changing? When CMP started doing more at Perry to run their show themselves NRA's directions to personnel was "don't help them" apparently hoping they would beg NRA for help. It didn't work out that way. There had been cooperation in the past and it would continue. At the operating level CMP and their equipment were needed. Now it seems CMP is where ideas, good or bad, come from. Drastic change has come @ Perry in the past when military support was pulled and NRA countered w/ volunteers. Competitor and operating costs increased. It looks as if electronic target will be the next change and vols cut.

Nobody mentions an underlying $$ factor affecting participation, the economy. From every source we hear purchasing power has declined, probably starting soon after 2001 and 9/11. Hopefully that cycle will turn and Bullseye we will see an upturn.


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Post by DavidR Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:35 pm

Yes the taladega complex
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Post by GrumpyOldMan Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:39 pm

DavidR wrote:Like I said this was from the SCNG team, don't know who told them but this wasn't just some guy standing behind me at the piggley wiggley Laughing
Yeah, you made me chuckle with that one!

Okay, I'm STRONGLY in favor of more matches + Perry for the DM badge. I am myself nowhere near close to that and I think my 3rd-place rifle medal from a leg match in the 1980s brought me no points because there were too few non-DM shooters...

Nevertheless and despite my age, I believe that I am one of the shooters that ODCM or whatever it's called now *could* entice into competing and maybe even venturing to Perry. Ohio's so far away maybe even Talledega. Maybe.

As aptly noted by many in these threads over the past few months, my biggest obstacle to jumping into "real" BE shooting is no local matches. I believe I would have to drive to San Bernardino now, not even Barstow, since the Boulder City NV stuff ended before I was a teen, right after a local club in my hometown shut down. Nice patch of grass and palm trees at the turnoff to Lake Las Vegas where that range usta-wuz... I don't think there is even anything up in the SLC area any more.

I hesitate to ram-rod any local BE match where I now live because the local semi-public range is run by people who seem to have a persecution complex fed by how prior management of the county-lease "park" allowed the Cowboy and IPSC and shotgun shooters to essentially pay no rent for almost a decade and funnel all of their own sizeable funds and very large volunteer contributions into some pretty nice facilities. Other than serving as RSOs in exchange for some free range time during off hours, there seems to be a huge dearth of willing volunteers, and I have not the time nor the surplus income needed to divert my own efforts into organizing even an outlaw match using a buzzer and non-turning targets. But I am still very, very tempted to do a one-time event once a few things settle down.

Now the proposed CMP list of almost anything goes including revolvers and calibers which have never been issued by ANY military to my mind drifts too far afield from the underlying purpose of the program. I retain a national defense orientation, right down to the ammunition must at least be full-power and not mouse phart wadgun loads to earn a DM medal.  Yes, keep the precision, even allow HP and lead bullet ammo to encourage participation (Please spare us the challenge of finding decent FMJ accuracy in 9mm!), and open it up to any gun that's ever been issued in the last 50 years by any NATO country. The skillsets *are* largely transferable, you know.

I could even lose the turning targets to a combined lights and horn signal. Without sighters like they have in HP rifle, I remain a little distrustful of my handgun's zero coinciding with where the electronic target system thinks the middle of that black dot is. My tech-brain also believes that it should not add much at all to the startup and operational costs of electronic targets to find a way to make the aiming point appear and disappear with the start and stop, making the lights and horn unnecessary. A cheap electric servo with a 90-degree throw to move a 24-inch square hunk of gray cardboard really would do it, and could be shielded from hits to the mechanism, and use cheap and replaceable 1x2 wood stock to hold the cardboard AND even be beefy enough to withstand a thunderstorm squall moving through the range.  Of course, by the time you do THAT, it is also quite close to just having a UIT Pistol-style aiming black turn from edge-on to facing you and back, just like we do now. Off the shelf parts should be able to do that just fine, without needing to be engineered all the way up to the overbuilt level you would need to drive regular paper targets. At least I hope someone could do that without breaking the bank.

Also, we are social creatures and we WILL find a way to socialize and pass on info and thoughts between the old geezers and the newbies without gathering at a scoring table. Not every second "saved" by electronic targets and auto-scoring should be devoted to rushing the shooters in and out faster. We could even adjust to doing a lot of that socializing actually AFTER the last round. "We always have a meeting after the match" explains to the family why it still takes the same amount of time for you to get home.

As far as the targets go, I remain a bit skeptical about the high, high cost of replacing what is at Perry. Since the NRA spun off USA Shooting or whatever, I don't quite trust them or their commitment to competition anyway. Never understood why they could never adopt USPSA into their program either, same for IHMSA. But the NRA competitions probably also attract the same "don't change anything" types who cry-babied the Bianchi Cup into a static course of fire. BORING. Originally, there was room for them to rotate specific courses of fire in and out of "Action Pistol", but now it's just a series of standard exercises. I'm not sorry to say that that approach is best for BULLSEYE, which is a pure precision game with a par time attached.

CMP must remain a precision game, using standard power ammo IMO, and preferably allowing only military-suitable arms and ammunition. Guess that would include Glocks. Now, I would really, really be interested in seeing what develops when someone is motivated to improve on the "Perfection" accuracy those things deliver! The 2nd least accurate handgun I've ever had was a Glock in .40 S&W, but of course Austria and Smyrna must be right when they call ALL of those things "accurate". Meh.

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