S&W M46/41 FTF

First topic message reminder :

My Hammerli is down for repair, so I pulled my "trusty" Model 46 with Model 41 slide and barrel out of the safe, where it has been for about 15 years.  When I placed it there, it was working fine.  Now, unfortunately, when I need it, it is failing me thusly:

Several times during a 900, I will get a click/no bang, which shows only the very minimal, almost invisible, mark on the rim.  I can tell the difference in the trigger as I bring it back, but since I'm concentrating on the shot, I don't try looking at the slide during those times in case it does fire.  However, I have found the gun just slightly out of battery on several occasions, to include the initial load of a new magazine.  The times I have been able to examine this further have shown the round to be fully chambered, but the extractor behind it instead of in front.  If I simply press the slide into battery all is well until the next time.  It happens across old and new magazines, at least seven of them and is random as to how many shots I can get off from a mag.  If I can find my other barrel, I'll see if that makes any difference.

Any thoughts would be welcomed, but it may be a bit of time before I get out to the range, since I'm under the weather myself, right now.  I hope I can identify something here at home.  Somewhere I have some dummy .22 rounds that I hope to use to see if I can duplicate the problem via cycling here at home.  Thanks...

Edit for additional info: A close examination of the extractor and its channel shows no dings or shiny portions except for the front portion of the extractor where it would ride over the rim if the round was in the chamber but the slide was retracted, and that area of the channel.  This is very shiny as though maybe the round is always ahead and the extractor makes it over for most.  The corresponding area of the cut out has some shine, but nowhere near what the extractor has.

Problem with standard 1911 extractor is that it wasn't designed to snap over the rim. I've seen pistols that had magazines that released the cartridge too early damage the extractor. Also tension seems to always be loose on those pistols. Is it because of the abuse/fatigue of snapping over the rim or loose in the first place? .22 extractor is designed to pivot. No stress on extractor in comparison to the 1911.
Jon

Thanks for all the help.  I tried to get some detailed pictures, but for some reason, my equipment is refusing and I don't understand why, yet.

But, I will provide some details and answers/comments.  This may be a long post...

Background:  I acquired this gun from an estate sale in the late '80s.  It came as a Model 46 frame with a 41 barrel and slide.  The barrel was one of the original S&W 7-3/8 inch models.  It does not have the muzzle break, but the hole where the weight would fit is closed.  I don't know if the weight is there, or it has just been plugged and that's the barrel I can't find.  The barrel I have on it now is a 5 inch model.

In studying this and thinking back, I know I didn't have any issues in functioning with either barrel, because I was using this gun exclusively for matches.  I used the long barrel with a scope mounted for BE and the short barrel with open sights for International.  Now, a difference is noted here:  Since I was shooting this gun for competitions, I was probably shooting Eley Tenex and SK Pistol Match in all the competitions (except as later noted).  Now, I'm shooting Armscor, CCI and I tried Eley Sport.  Also, from '93-'96, I shot this gun a few times in German competitions as a backup for my Ruger, but I don't recall what ammo I used over there.

I don't have any scale handy, that's precise enough to get an actual weight, for the springs, but here are some physical measurements and other data:

This is for the original, unknown spring that came with the gun and that I swapped back in prior to the last outing:

Code:


4.5576 inches long
0.0281 inch wire diameter all coils
35 coils including the closed one
one closed end
one open end


This is for the spring that spent the time in storage, which I believe to be a Wolff, 7.5 variable (Factory Standard):

Code:


3.9585 inches long
0.0285 inch wire at open end
0.0295 inch wire at closed end
diameter appears to increase gradually from open to closed end
31 coils including the closed one
one closed end
one open end
this spring is no longer straight when relaxed


I am sling shotting the slide, kind of, since the stop is not readily accessible with the grips I currently have on the gun.  Actually, to be accurate, I am placing my thumb and index finger on the front portion of the slide from underneath, with my palm in front of the guard and moving the slide rearward enough for the stop to drop.  Then I release my grip and let the slide go forward.  The failures do sometimes happen at this point, but they also happen during "normal" cycling.

The firing pin does not reach the chamber if dry fired empty.

The bolt has to be lightly tapped in and out of the slide - no play when seated.

With no round, the slide moves freely all the way into battery and cannot even be eased down to anywhere out of battery.  There is no sign of anything catching or "bumping" in any manner.

Rounds fall into and out of the chamber without hesitation.

When it fails, if I'm in a string, there is a different trigger weight, which I can easily detect, however, if I try to fire, the hammer will fall, but no ignition occurs.  An inspection of the brass shows only the very slightest mark on the rim.

When it fails, if I stop to inspect why, I can see the slide is slightly back.  A very rough estimate, would be 0.030 inch out of battery.  I might take a measuring device to see how close that estimate is.  I can also see this at the back of the slide.

When I do inspect the above condition and retract the slide slowly, I can see the round under the extractor, properly held within the bolt.  If I let it back into battery easily, it will go to the same point and stop with a definite barrier.  If I push on the rear of the slide to force it into battery, it takes a little effort and a definite "click" is heard when it does go in.

There are no burrs on the extractor.  There is a mark on the lower edge of the slot that lines up with the extractor forwardmost tip without a round under it, but it looks old, not shiny at all.

As for the mixing, I believe the trouble is in mixing the slides and barrels.  The 46 slide and barrel had a more pronounced radius where the side rails meet the bolt area.  I think the 46 slide would hang up out of battery with the 41 barrel installed, but there would be sufficient clearance using a 41 slide and 46 barrel.  I might be totally backward and I'm going by what other knowledgeable people have said about the top being 41 parts.

If I've missed something, let me know.  I'll be working on some pictures to post, if I can get this darn equipment working.  I can get low resolution, but it's fighting me in trying to get something usable for such a small part as the extractor.  I'll also try to get a current weight for these springs.

For now, I'll stick with posting here, since there are a few interested parties, but I'll get with some of you in alternate methods later, perhaps.  Thanks for all the help with this.  I really need to get this gun running, to make up for the absence of my 208s...

Len:

Me too. Will probably check myself too when I get a chance.

Now the esoterical question is how/what happens to prevent that slip under the extractor feed?

But regardless of how it happens, it should be a harmless feeding error quickly made irrelevant by the extractor snapping over anyway. Thus Mr. Hall has unfortunately uncovered two separate but related problems with his FrankenBuild.

Don't get me wrong--that's actually a dispassionate description. I have enjoyed a couple of FrankenGuns over the years, think it's a triumph of will vs. whatever situation brought the FrankenParts together. As long as it WORKS.

Jon Eulette wrote:Problem with standard 1911 extractor is that it wasn't designed to snap over the rim. I've seen pistols that had magazines that released the cartridge too early damage the extractor.  Also tension seems to always be loose on those pistols. Is it because of the abuse/fatigue of snapping over the rim or loose in the first place? .22 extractor is designed to pivot. No stress on extractor in comparison to the 1911.
Jon

Oh, the surfaces and operation of the 1911 extractor make it clear that it WAS designed to snap over the rim.  Even the specs of the hole it mounts into the slide is designed to let the extractor bend out *that far*.

It's just not designed to be the *primary* feeding function of the thing.  Kinda like using the parking brake to ease up to every stop sign, "reserving" the hydraulic system for urgent stops or highway slow-downs. It works but ain't supposed to be used that often.

Ed:

You posted while I was taking my sweet time typing the stuff above.

Here's the source of your problem, I am certain now:

"When I do inspect the above condition and retract the slide slowly, I can see the round under the extractor, properly held within the bolt.  If I let it back into battery easily, it will go to the same point and stop with a definite barrier.  If I push on the rear of the slide to force it into battery, it takes a little effort and a definite "click" is heard when it does go in.

I had to re-shape the extractor on someone's rifle while I was at BYU, because as it went forward against the barrel groove, it would rotate away from engaging the rimfire case rim...and when the bolt came back, the inside corner was not sharp enough/matched with the little bit of exposed rim to reliably pick it up.

Now, there are stories I've heard about various "vintages" of the M41, regarding a radius inside the barrel cut not always matching the curve on the inside face of that forward part of the extractor. Trouble lurks in there.

Since I was WRONG about part of your problem being the cases getting forward of the extractor, your further description makes me firmly believe that for whatever reason(s) cause it, there is enough extractor resistance as its forward face hits the barrel cut, to hold the bolt back that .030-ish that you observe.

Careful stoning to make things match up better and reduce that last tiny friction point is part of, if not the whole, cure.

The end result of the bolt being held that small bit back could include the hammer losing part of its energy hitting the bottom corner of the slide. But if there really is clearance and the hammer is not bumping the slide, there is also the ignition AND velocity spread problem of your firing pin striking in a de facto excess headspace setting. This of course is made worse IF your FP is worn or just a bit off in the direction of stopping just a bit short. I think the FP is supposed to stop exactly flush with the flat of the boltface.

The fact that the hammer falling on your misfire round makes me suspect that the hammer might not be striking the camming surface of the bolt...

Betcha that a stiffer recoil spring will overcome every variation of the problem.  Unless there is some piece of hard crud or powder flakes in that cutout that have not yielded to your cleaning efforts.

I'm thinking you should be back in the saddle by Saturday.

Just looked--on the early 41s at least, the extractor cams out the same distance loaded or empty chamber, and the only point of contact is the portion of the cut immediately next to the chamber.

Easing the bolt forward no matter how slowly always cams the extractor out all the way and the bolt rests fully against the barrel face.

This is with a 100% original gun of unknown round count.

I have located my dummy rounds.  Now I can try to duplicate the failure at home.  I really frown on using live ammo to test anything at home!  I do so at the range only.

A couple of extra notes:

When the gun is working correctly, the slide will move in and out of battery with no catching, no matter how many times I try.  When it is stopping short, it stops short no matter how many times I try.  However, I don't remember trying to see if, after I have pressed it into battery and experienced the "click," that it will stick again or stay smooth.

With the dummy rounds, I'm going to try to cause the failure and then "fiddle" with the extractor, to see if it changes anything.

I am getting some images now, but they are slightly skewed.  I think they may be useful, though.  More later...

It's a bit late to "play" tonight, so as soon as I can tomorrow, I'll dig into this a bit.

Thanks, again, everyone.

ED
I think I saw you say that a new round drops in the chamber ok

Does a misfed round, taken out and then dropped back in succeed?

Ed, I just re-read the whole series.  I think you have a timing issue with the trigger bar.  That has a direct effect on the slide going back into battery and of course feeding.  Please give me a call and I can explain this much better.

Jack and KC (and others):  Thanks again for the help.

At this point the gun is still in pieces while I try to get some photos finished.  The chambered round query (Jack H) falls in line with whether the "clicked" solution then travels freely.  I haven't checked, but will.  As to the timing (KC), I will leave the grips off and see if I can tell anything as I reassemble it.  Of note, I have not been changing (or examining) anything in the frame, other than the orientation of the magazine disconnector.  The hangup being associated with the sear bar, makes sense to me.  After I get it together, as soon as I can get to it, I will look it over, post some more and possibly give a call to KC.  I think I will hesitate with finishing the photos right now to pursue the sear bar thought.  The failure was with two different sets of grips, one factory, one homemade.

Well, I can't get it to fail at home with my dummy rounds.

The next step will be heading to the range, hopefully today, but maybe not.  I did look over the sear bar (and slide rail) and although it is awfully sloppy when in battery, I didn't see anything that caught my attention in regards to the issue.  I did, however note that the forward edge of the cutout has some peening, but the sear bar is rounded enough that it is not impeded at all as it passes by and at only about 0.030 inch out of battery, I can find no way of even creating any interference from the bar.  The slide has quite a bit of rotational tolerance and if I force it clockwise while letting it close, I can get the extractor to touch the bottom of its slot in the barrel, but I can't force any catching and since, when this occurs, it stays until I force it, I can't see this rotational touching as being relevant.  I'm not going to smooth out the peening on the slide rail though, until I figure out the problem, in case it does play a part.

As to the 41/46 issue, I have looked closer at my "41 top" and have come to the conclusion that the slide is a 46 slide that has been modified to fit the 41 barrels.  I have also not found any issues with the fitting work, and this ran fine for a lot of years in this configuration.

As another aside, I never knew who the late shooter was, from whose estate I purchased the gun, but the name Goff is engraved on the inside of the dust cover.  Any of you familiar with that name?

Tiny bit of extra info: the firing pin is about 0.005" short of flush with the bolt face when fully forward.

KC:  (If you see this before I go up to the range), should I call you before going, or wait until I get to the range?

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

Hi Ed. I'm no smith, as you know, but would it be worthwhile for troubleshooting purposes, to remove the extractor completely for a functional test? After all, the extractor is only there to remove a round without firing it, right?
Also, if you need a 41 barrel to try, I have one for you!
John

I believe some progress has been made.

Short version:  I had a chance to get to the range and experienced the failure in a solid enough manner and with enough time (since I wasn't at a league/match setting) to really study it.  After the study I called K C and he spent quite a bit of time using my eyes and his experience to come to a solution that I feel confident will alleviate the problem.  Actually, after my initial description, I think he was already trying to tell me what was wrong, but it took a little bit more for me to "see" it, or maybe I just kept describing more than necessary.

I am going to go into detail for a bit in case some may be interested.  Others may wish to skim or skip.  Hopefully I will describe my memories correctly.

The failure:  Oddly, I fired 40 rounds of Armscor without failure.  Then I switched to CCI SV and fired another twenty, again without failure.  I was wondering what was going on, when I finally had a hard failure.  The slide was a little more than the estimated 0.030" but it was hard to get a good measurement.  However, I pulled the grips and examined the sear bar, which was totally free to move, so it wasn't doing anything to the slide.  I also looked at the slide stop and it was totally clear of the slide, as was the thumb safety.  Next, I lightly moved the extractor in its slot to see if it would fall into battery.  It did not, even though I moved it toward each surface, without flexing it in a manner to change how it was holding the case.  It actually twisted the slide slightly as I moved it in the slot, but the round did not chamber.  It was still solidly locked just out of battery.  Next, I looked in from the side opposite the extractor and could see that the rim of the case was fully against the rim of the chamber, but that it was (obviously) not fully seated in the bolt.  Ah, ha - progress!  I retracted the slide some and sure enough, the extractor brought the round out of the chamber and I could more easily tell that it was not fully back into the headspace, but the extractor had a sufficient grip on the rim to hang onto it.

With the above observations and data, I called K C and he told me what was wrong, which we then confirmed through specific visual inspection.  I had noticed a while ago, that the slide stop had peened the face of the slide, beside the bolt face, but I didn't examine this any further.  In fact, the stop is shaped such that the center of the back surface, where it sits against the slide, when locked, is somewhat concave.  Additionally the inward corner protrudes some, and is actually beating the edge of the bolt right next to the headspace.  That part hadn't really caught my eye when I noticed the other area had been peened.

The solution, described by K C is to first remove the portion of the stop that hits the bolt, by taking that corner down, thereby restricting the contact between the stop and slide to only the slide.  Then, the finishing touch is to redress the area of the headspace that has been damaged by the stop.  I really feel confident that this will fix the issue.  Unfortunately, I'm going to be really busy for the next few days and probably won't be able to verify its operation very soon.

If I've missed something, or made a mistake in the above details, I hope K C will chime in and correct my error(s).

I'd like to extend a special Thank You! to K C and a Thanks! to all who provided help for this frustrating problem.

I'll post something some time later as to the success...

Seeing as I picked up a used Model 41 (pound rescue?) recently that has a few bugs to iron out this has been a fascinating thread. Thanks for keeping it online, it's a benefit to the rest of us.

(where's the damn smiley emoticon for eating popcorn?)

Well, I made it to the range tonight and am pleased to report that I fired 130 rounds of Armscor and CCI SV using 7 different magazines without a single hitch of any kind.

THANK YOU K C ! !

And, thanks again to everyone who offered help.

Congratulations on your sucess. Now you can spend your time shooting instead of fixing.

Totally  !!!

This will be my last report on this issue.**  Tuesday night I fired 90 rounds of Armscor and had two failures, but neither was related to the original trouble.  The first was a stovepipe and the second was a bad primer.  (Both were during Slow Fire.)  There was a definitely deep impact for the bad primer round, but no fire.  After the 90 rounds of Armscor, I fired 90 rounds of CCI SV with no issues.  I'm considering the gun fully functional.  Thanks again, everyone.

**The 46 will be moved to backup status now, because... I HAVE MY HAMMERLI 208s ALL BACK TOGETHER!! 

Ed,
I discovered that lots of Federal 22s had wider than normal areas in the case just above the rim, which caused FTF, specifically failures to go completely into battery in my 7.375" 41. Drove me nuts until I started dropping rounds into a clean chamber and watched the Federals stick. That happened with just one lot; I didn't think to record the number.

However, that may not have been my only problem. I had light strikes with other ammo and finally figured out that the firing pin was badly worn. Replacing firing pin, extractor, associated springs almost cleaned up the problem. However, I still experienced erratic miss-feeds and ended up replacing the bolt face. When I made these repairs, Smith and Wesson did not have any 41 bolt faces in stock and I had to scavenge one from a 5.5" barrel. All of those corrections cured the problems, but I don't know if all were actually necessary. 

I think I had been experiencing these issues over time but did not start paying particular attention to them until I started using the pistol for Bullseye. Then every alibi becomes irritating and begs attention.

I should note that I use a lighter recoil spring with SV ammo (I think the 7.5lb is standard); I use a 7lb, which seems to give better reliability. May be this will help. Dipnet