Advice requested - how to improve

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Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 12:40 am

First topic message reminder :

I had my brother stand next to me as I fired off five rounds from my Salyer.  He held my Canon camera set to capture a video of me and the gun.  This was shooting two-handed.  Eventually I'll have him film me shooting one handed.

While watching the video, I struggled to understand what was going on, so I slowed it down to 1/4 speed, so I could then play it back frame by frame and see both what I was doing, and what the gun was doing.

I've got lots of questions that I'm not going to ask.  If anyone can offer feedback on what I'm doing, I'd appreciate it.  The closest thing I've got to a "coach" is you guys. 

Ammo was Magnus, #801 I think, with what was supposed to be 4.0 grains of Bullseye powder.  




Video at normal speed:  https://youtu.be/_PBwIEVb6NE


Last edited by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Jack H on 7/26/2018, 11:22 am

Mike
I mentioned one time to do Military presses, push-ups etc.  No gun imvolved.

Get a small dumbell or milk jug with different amounts of water inside.  Repeat lifting up and lowering down like a weight lifter.  Sometimes hold the weight out in near shoot position for 30 seconds, then rest, repeat.  Do any exercise until you feel a burn, then rest, repeat 2-3 times. 

Consult a physical therapist/trainer.  Try exercise with surgical tube rubbers. 

Get a hand squeezer device
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2018, 11:33 am

Jack H wrote:Mike
I mentioned one time to do Military presses, push-ups etc.  No gun imvolved.

Get a small dumbell or milk jug with different amounts of water inside.  Repeat lifting up and lowering down like a weight lifter.  Sometimes hold the weight out in near shoot position for 30 seconds, then rest, repeat.  Do any exercise until you feel a burn, then rest, repeat 2-3 times. 

Consult a physical therapist/trainer.  Try exercise with surgical tube rubbers. 

Get a hand squeezer device
Point 1 - my doctor was concerned about my starting that kind of exercise, because of other medical issues I've had.

Point 2 - Essentially, I'm doing that, holding the gun out in front of me, with and without a 1.5 pound wrist weight.  I sit or stand, holding my hand out for one minute.  I never get to "feel a burn", but when my hand starts shaking uncontrollably, I stop, wait a couple of minutes, and repeat.  I did this years ago with two hands.  It took a while, but I did get past it.  When I'm overseas, I hold a plastic bag filled with books out in front of me.  

Point 3 - I had a long talk with my doctor.  He feels exercise is good, but to not over-do it.   What are "surgical tube rubbers" ?

Point 4 - I got a set.  That part was easy.  Now I need to start using them.  Maybe I need a lighter set.  Thanks.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/27/2018, 1:48 pm

CR10X wrote:............Performance is to be measured by ability to call the shot, group size and number of complete / correct repetitions of each training exercise. All of which is to be recorded and reviewed.  The target is irrelevant, unimportant and basically a distraction.  (Especially those expensive and useless "shoot and see" targets that simply train the shooter to look at the target.  You should be using a lot of "blank" targets..........
I understand about using a blank piece of paper for a target, or turning the target backwards, for shooting with iron sights.  My brain "knows" where the center of the paper is.  This doesn't work for my red dot sight, all I see is white - no indication about location.  I can draw a large "plus" sign, or make a small circle for where to aim.


For anything I can think of in my life, as I trained I could see improvement, maybe after hours, or days, or weeks, but I could see progress.  I put up a B-8 target, to date and save, like a test.   In my mind, what I am training for is to gain the ability to hold the gun steady enough for a long enough time to align the sights (and not disturb the sights when the gun fires).  The grouping is tightening up.  Below is a photo of the last target today.  The target before it looked the same.  It's not great, but it is better than what I could do before........25 yards, one handed.    

I'll be out of town for a week, but will pick up again where I left off.  Thank you all, for your patience with me.

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by jmdavis on 7/27/2018, 2:19 pm

It works with the red dot too. Your eye will be naturally drawn to center the dot on the paper. I don't know that it is as effective with the dot. But in general I see people shoot tighter groups without the distraction of the bull whether using irons or dot.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/28/2018, 9:46 pm

I won't get to it for a week, but I'll try shooting at a plain white piece of 8 1/2 x 11 writing paper.  I think I was wrong about what I wrote earlier; the more I think about it, if I can "see" the paper, I should be able to sense where the middle is, even with the red dot.  

It's a bummer when "real life" interferes with what I want to do.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/10/2018, 12:13 am

Thank you to all of you, especially CR10X.  I was thinking before that I could do this, but now that I understand better, that thought is absurd.  I might as well have been contemplating climbing Mt. Everest.


I've been gathering all the ideas expressed above, condensing them, and trying to figure out a way to deal with them.  I was aiming too high.  It ain't ever going to happen.

I copied all of what I thought was useful stuff for me into a single computer file, and tonight I tried to review it, and document what I've accomplished.  I had this feeling in my mind that I was improving, and getting somewhere.  I'll copy that file below, for whatever it's worth.  

I enjoy shooting, and reloading, and using all my guns, and I guess the bottom line is THAT is what I'm after.  I'll shoot some matches at my club, and continue on with what I've been doing.  I've learned a lot here, and maybe if I was younger, I'd have different plans for the future.    Anyway, let me try to copy that file down below.....
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CONCLUSIONS

Post by mikemyers on 9/10/2018, 12:23 am

I edited this thread, removing everything I wrote, and copied only the Bullseye advice I received from all of you below.  I will also add an update for that advice.  (The more I read and wrote here, the more I realized this is impossible for me.)
 
As a result of this discussion, here’s what has changed.
·      I ordered a couple of thousand CCI SV rounds, and selected my High Standard to be my Bullseye gun.  I’m using that gun for Bullseye, one handed when I’m serious about this.  
·     Because of the comments about weight lifting, my dry-firing drills at home now resemble what I do at the range, not how long can I hold up a weight.
 
(The following may disqualify me from any future help, but in addition to my goals for Bullseye, I also want to shoot my other guns for enjoyment. I won’t ask for any further help for two-hand shooting, but I don’t want to give up my Salyer, my M-52, my revolvers, and now my Black Powder gun.  For any serious discussions on how to improve, I will only be referring to my High Standard, and if it has problems, to my Model 41.  
 
 
 
 by robert84010    
Mike,
why are you doing this with .45?? There is a reason they make .22 conversions and other 22's. If you are blinking then you are flinching and need more time with a 22. Buy a case of .22lr and teach yourself how to make one perfectly called shot in the middle, if it takes another case, so be it. There should be no surprises when you look in the spotting scope. then TELL US what works for you instead of asking us what you should do. We cannot align the sights in the middle or squeeze the trigger for you.
You can see everything happening with a 22. 
A perfect shot will be learned with a 22 well before it's learned with a 45, especially with inconsistent ammo. You need to appreciate the 22 for the learning tool that it is.

[CORRECTED, NOW USING 22 FOR BULLSEYE]
 

 by Keyholed 


(1) The reason you're rocking back and forth is your feet. I'd bet that you're standing with your feet square to the target, and your weight at normal standing balance. When the gun recoils, the force sets you back on your heels, because you're in the absolute worst position to resist it. You've got zero mechanical advantage, and no way to resist that push other than moving your center of mass after the fact. During recovery, your weight moves back to neutral, and then a bit forward, causing you to wobble as you overcorrect.  What you want is to stand so that somebody could give you a good hard shove, without you falling over backwards.  Try putting your left foot slightly forward--usually just enough that the toe of your right foot is in line with the heel of your left. Then bend your knees slightly until you can feel your weight shift to the balls of your feet. I usually suggest not bending the back unless you're doing Spray and Pray games, because it can cause a few aches and pains, and is a little harder to point naturally with than keeping your upper body straight and bringing the pistol up to your line of sight.
[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED]

 

It looks like you're gripping the hell out of the pistol. I can see the tendons in your wrists sticking out. Unfortunately, your hands are the only part of your arms that are actually in the game. Forearms, upper arms, and shoulders are just along for the ride. Get your arms straight, and push out at the target--without locking your elbows. This gets your muscles tensed  and ready to resist recoil. Remember, you can't pull the gun down to control recoil (you'd be aiming at the ground in short order), you have to achieve "intensity of position" by pushing out.
It's not about muscle strength. I'm not a big guy, and I don't have huge ripping muscles. I'm not even particularly strong. But I can outperform guys twice my size because my muscles are in the right state to control the pistol. Now, muscle strength does confer a competitive advantage, but only after technique is mastered.
[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED]

 

This one is brutal, but must be said: Blinking is bloody blinking, no matter when it blinkin' happens. Before the shot? Bad. During the shot? Bad. After the shot? Bad. It doesn't matter what some dude on r/Guns says. The R doesn't stand for Reddit.  Follow-through is the act of applying the other fundamentals of pistol shooting before, during, and after the shot.

[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED – I THNK]



Some things are going to feel unnatural, especially if you've been doing them some other way for awhile. Leaning--I only lean forward or bend my back when I'm shooting something that recoils enough to actually hurt me. Personally, that means .44 Mag and up. Otherwise, my back is at the natural straight position, no bend in either the vertebrae or at the pelvis. This doesn't look as tacticool, but hey, it works for Doug Koenig just fine.
[I AM TRYING TO FOLLOW DOUG KOENIG’S STANCE]

Grip--Inside of 10 yards, I squeeze as hard as I can. The gun trembles--badly--but I don't particularly care. Outside of 10 yards, I relax just enough to let the trembling almost stop. Gripping the hell out of a pistol is a good thing. Use your hand muscles, but learn to grip with your wrist as well.

[I AM GRIPPING TIGHTER NOW, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF TREMBLING]

Intensity of Position--I think I stole that descriptor from Zins. It's just about a perfect way of thinking about it. It's not really tense, or trying to strain or lock anything. Just focusing on maintaining that position through recoil.  Bent Arms--Doug Koenig bends his arms a little, too. Doug's not a huge guy, and he doesn't have monster hands like JM or Bill Jordan, but he's got some mass on me and I'm pretty sure he does more PT. He uses the bent arms to absorb recoil and shoot faster. Personally, I think that my straightening my arms puts me at the same "spring rate" as him. Mileage varies.

[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED]
 
 

 by Jack H 

Mike
It appears you have a good handle on the general skills of the pistol shot.  Maybe now you should look into the individual components in detail, one at a time.  Like recoil management.  Experiment with grip and stance for the only purpose of minimizing the recoil and it's effect on your stance and grip.  I mean learn what it takes you to be as much a repeatable steady gun holder as possible.  Shoot some shots safely and think only what that recoil does to you and try to minimize it.  Forget about the target for a bit.  Safely of course.  Later on marry what you learn to sighting, etc....
[HAVE NOT WORKED ON THIS YET]

 

More as I think of it and might lose my thoughts tomorrow.  
Blinking.  Shoot some shots safely with the sole purpose of keeping your eyes open all the time.  Learn and combine later.  Build it one step at a time.

[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED – I THINK]


 
by Chris Miceli 
I'm sure that this is obvious but, bullseye shooters fire with one hand. I would never ask any action pistol shooters for advise on firing single handed precision shots. I would track down some videos by rob leatham and the forums he would use.
[CORRECTED FOR BULLSEYE, USING 22, AS SUGGESTED]
 
 
by willnewton 
I think you need to differentiate holding up your arm for exercise vs. holding a gun to fire at a target.  It sounds like you are basing your self worth on how long you can hold your arm out for exercise. Yet most teaching will tell you, most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol.  Don’t compare and judge yourself against a twenty year old military shooter, unless you are one!  Don’t judge your shooting based on your weight lifting. 
[CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED]
 


 You lift weights for a half hour and wonder why your hand shakes and you can’t hold a pistol steady after?  Sometimes, I think you should read your posts from the viewpoint that we read them.    
[YES, THAT IS WHAT I USED TO DO.  CORRECTED, AS SUGGESTED]

 
 

I see that you are eager to learn every single thing.  This is much appreciated, because there are few that are willing to take the time to learn something that is not easy.  Yet this eagerness, in too much supply, can hinder you over the long haul.  You get a precious new gem of knowledge, then run out to quickly go try it, then report back.  You do that twenty times and you have tried twenty new things and made 100 posts about it.  Hey great, but what have you LEARNED?
The human brain loves novelty and stimulation.  It loves to try new things.  In your eagerness to absorb EVERYTHING, you are throwing yourself into analysis overload and the human mind, which is wired for addiction to new stimulus, is super happy about it and has no intentions on letting you rest as long as it can get a taste of that sweet info-crack.  The result is that you are chewing through ideas so fast, you are not taking time to LEARN only to TRY.  You post up your experience about trying new things, but there does not seem to be a lot of learning, just reactions about what new flavor of the day you have tried.  Learning occurs over months of practicing a SINGLE idea until it has become integrated enough that you do not need to consider it any longer.   When you open a door, do you TRY it with your left hand, then your right hand, then standing on one foot, then doing it while singing?  No, you walk up and open the door.  There is no thought, no planning, no analysis.  You have LEARNED how to open a door.
[I UNDERSTAND, BUT I’VE BEEN THIS WAY FOR MY WHOLE LIFE.  I THINK WHAT I DO AT THE RANGE STICKS IN MY MIND, EVENTUALLY, BUT MY HEAD IS ALWAYS SPINNING WITH NEW IDEAS ABOUT EVERYTHING, (NOT JUST SHOOTING).]


Mike, you need to sit back and think on this amazing thing you did.  You trained yourself how to do the IMPOSSIBLE on command in only five months.  

Stop fretting so much over the trees my friend, because you are missing the forest!

[ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT FOR ME, IT’S LIKE A COMPUTER PROGRAM.  IF ONE MINOR DETAIL DOES’T WORK RIGHT, THE PROGRAM IS USELESS.  I THINK MY BRAIN IS WIRED DIFFERENTLY THAN OTHER PEOPLE.]
 
 
 by CR10X 
Just a couple of observations. 

If you want to improve, start with setting an appropriate goal(s) for each training session.  Hint, it ain't about where the shots land on the paper.  Otherwise, range time can easily become practicing mediocrity through repetition. 

A number of important points have been made in previous posts which deserve some thought.  Just remember, when we start looking for excuses (or diversions), we've generally lost sight of what we were trying to do in the first place. 




I also read long ago that one should understand the reason for every shot that was not good, to eventually minimize them from happening again.
NO.  Understand the good, ignore the not good.  Why waste time and brain cells learning "not good" instead of reinforcing "good"? 
[TO ME, THE ONLY WAY TO ELIMINATE A PROBLEM IS TO RECOGNIZE IT, AND PREVENT IT IN THE FUTURE.]



Either you are training or you are just practicing mediocrity. Every session should have a goal related to some part of the shot process or performance enhancement.  Only minimal amount of time should be spent on "things" like guns, cleaning, reloading,etc.  Maximize time spent on physical preparation, shot process, goal setting and review / diary.  Practice is just for practice (shooting a "match format") for score and documentation to see how the training on the individual parts is developing, making notes and observations for future training sessions.  Training is for training,  practice is not for training, but for making observations only. Matches are for shooting, not training or practice.  Simply the performance of the same shot process X number of times until the match is completed.  
[THE PROBLEM FOR ME, IS THAT YOU ARE MOST LIKELY RIGHT, WHICH MEANS I SHOULD STOP RIGHT NOW.  I SHOOT BECAUSE I ENJOY SHOOTING, AND RELOADING, AND CLEANING, AND IMPROVING.  I WANT TO GET BETTER, BUT I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO BE THE WAY YOU SUGGEST.  THANKS FOR POINTING THIS OUT – BUT IF YOU ARE CORRECT, THERE IS NO SENSE GOING ON.]



Performance is to be measured by ability to call the shot, group size and number of complete / correct repetitions of each training exercise. All of which is to be recorded and reviewed.  The target is irrelevant, unimportant and basically a distraction.  (Especially those expensive and useless "shoot and see" targets that simply train the shooter to look at the target.  You should be using a lot of "blank" targets. 

[THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR TIME AND EFFORT, BUT IF YOU’RE RIGHT, AND YOU PROBABLY ARE, I MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP RIGHT NOW.  TO ME, PERFORMANCE = TARGETS, JUST AS IN RACING, PERFORMANCE = LAP TIMES.  I WON’T ARGUE WITH YOU, BECAUSE I KNOW IN MY HEART THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, BUT THAT LEAVES ME FEELING I’M UNABLE TO CONTINUE.]
 


Learning occurs over months of practicing a SINGLE idea until it has become integrated enough that you do not need to consider it any longer.  
[I’M 74, AND SPEND HALF MY TIME IN INDIA.  IF I WAS YOUNGER, THIS WOULD MAKE SENSE, BUT BY THE TIME I LEARN A FEW OF THE MANY THINGS I NEED TO KNOW/DO, I’LL BE TOO OLD TO DO THEM.  I GUESS I WAS FOOLISH TO EVER THINK I COULD ACCOMPLISH ALL THIS.  ]
 

In order to maximize your return on training time, if you want to improve at shooting Precision (Bullseye) Pistol; I would suggest a change in approach.  If you want to just have fun, then continue as you were.  Its up to you.  I'm out of this one now. 
[THANK YOU FOR POINTING ALL THIS OUT. AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.  I WILL CONTINUE TO SHOOT, BUT OBVIOUSLY, I’M NO MORE LIKELY TO ACCOMPLISH THIS, THAN IF MY GOAL WAS TO CLIMB TO THE TOP OF MT. EVEREST]



 by CR10X 

(I'm going to assume that you have missed the point about goal(s) versus outcomes. And specifically, training goals.  If you did not, then please ignore my response as it will make no difference.)  

In order to "shoot better", one should set a training plan for each specific part of the shot process for each training session (live fire, dry fire or non-firing); a goal for that part; and measure the success of that specific training (not groups).  This is different that any overall goal(s).  (What really sounds like outcomes that you desire.)

Nothing was said about competition (winning).  That is a different subject. 

("to win" has nothing really to do with "competing".  It is merely the outcome for the best competitor.  And the best competitor - overall or within his class -  is the one that completed his shot process completely and correctly the most number of times for the conditions of that match. It's the best competitor that wins the match, not specifically the best "shooter".  Therefore the shooter is always competing with himself.)  



[THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND AND AGREE WITH.  I WILL CONTINUE TO SIMPLY TRY TO IMPROVE, DOING BETTER NEXT TIME THAN LAST TIME.  THAT'S WHAT I ENJOY, AND I HAVE A FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AS I IMPROVE.  THANK YOU FOR WRITING THAT.  I MAY NOT GET TO THE TOP OF EVEREST, BUT I AM CONTINUING TO IMPROVE.]
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by dronning on 9/10/2018, 4:07 am

mikemyers wrote:
I also read long ago that one should understand the reason for every shot that was not good, to eventually minimize them from happening again.
NO.  Understand the good, ignore the not good.  Why waste time and brain cells learning "not good" instead of reinforcing "good"? 
[TO ME, THE ONLY WAY TO ELIMINATE A PROBLEM IS TO RECOGNIZE IT, AND PREVENT IT IN THE FUTURE.]
Mike this is the one perception that will hold you back more than any others you have listed.


Think of it this way, doing a process right and focusing only on repeating it brings clarity of purpose to your subconscious, which is where all good shots come from.  They rarely come from consciously controlling all aspects of the shot. Why?, you can't because so many things are happening simultaneously. It is a scientific fact that the human brain can only consciously focus on one thing at a time, while the subconscious can focus on +1,000's.  So during your shot process what are you focusing on when your are trying to prevent those bad shots?  There are literally 100's of things that could go wrong and the one way (your shot process) that can go right.

A great example explained to me.  When you learned to walk your brain wasn't developed enough to think about all the things that you did, or could, go wrong, your subconscious & body responded and you improved.  Have you ever tripped, bumped into someone or turned an ankle?  Did that cause you think about how to lift and place your foot correctly and keep your balance every time you take a step now?  No you focus on your direction and start your "walking process", the subconscious will keep your balance and pick up on the obstacles that you will move around without really thinking about it.



Will you ever trip and possibly fall, yes, for the same reason no one has shot a 2700 yet, something gets in the way of our subconscious.
- Dave

Before you say "that's the way I'm wired" well no, that is actually a conscious decision.  You can follow the advice given and train your subconscious by focusing only on what works or you can try and "PREVENT" your way to mediocrity.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/10/2018, 8:08 am

dronning wrote:
Think of it this way, doing a process right and focusing only on repeating it brings clarity of purpose to your subconscious, which is where all good shots come from.  They rarely come from consciously controlling all aspects of the shot. Why?, you can't because so many things are happening simultaneously. It is a scientific fact that the human brain can only consciously focus on one thing at a time, while the subconscious can focus on +1,000's.  So during your shot process what are you focusing on when your are trying to prevent those bad shots?  There are literally 100's of things that could go wrong and the one way (your shot process) that can go right.

Dave, when it comes to shooting, I already do exactly what you say.  I am totally, 100% focused on doing the best I can, as I've learned to do up to that moment in time.  There is no part of my conscious thought process considering "what not to do".   Just like in racing, I am only striving to do what's right.

I guess I wasn't very clear.  When I get home, I look over my results, just as I used to look over lap times, or examine my camera negatives, to see how I could have done better.  If I was trying a new fuel, or brand of powder, or my position, the next time I do something, I do it better, based partly on what I learned not to do, but mostly on what I want to do.  

From what you just wrote, I'm already not doing what you guys are suggesting.  

It's like when you guys pretty much told me to switch from center hold to sub-6.  I just adjusted my sights accordingly, went to the range the next day, and shot "normally", but with sub-6 .....and was amazed at how much better I was.  To me, and I don't see how you would disagree, if something I do is "better" than before, that means what I used to do was "worse".  

....or flinching.  Telling myself not to flinch didn't work, and made me flinch even more.  Following the advice I was given, shooting 100 rounds of hardball, acclimated my mind and body to not flinch - and the problem was gone.  But to me, if I hadn't considered that I might be doing something wrong, I'd never have found the problem.  My "trick" back then was to load 8 different magazines with a different number of rounds, and randomly shoot them.  That proved beyond any doubt that I was flinching, and by the end of the day, I was no longer flinching.   I think that's what you're suggesting - not to think of "what not to do", but only to think of "what TO do".  

(When I get home, and write up my experiences, I don't write what I did wrong before, I just write that what I learned will allow me to not make those mistakes any more.  ....and back to what we're discussing, had I not recognized that I was doing something wrong, I think I'd still be flinching forever, unless it's maybe something that goes away naturally.  Recognizing it, I was able to correct it.  That's what I've been trying to say here.  I understand, and agree, that the ONLY shot is the one I'm taking, as I do it.  I can't change my previous results, it's silly to think about my future results, and I never dwell on what others around me might be doing.  ...but to be honest, years ago, this was not true.)


With shooting, both "Bullseye" and "Black Powder" now, I write down what I'm trying to do, leaving nothing out, but making each item brief.  THAT is what I focus on, and THAT is what I try to force into my memory so I would be doing it that way even if I wasn't deliberately thinking about it.  NOPLACE in that process is there anything about what not to do, at least not until I get home, and look over my targets, just as I used to look over my lap-times.  Heck, I used to graph out my lap times, and if I noticed they were going up towards the end of a race, I tried to figure out why, and change what I did accordingly.  And the advice I was given back then regarding lap times, was NOT to make them shorter, just to make them consistent.  The words were "slower is faster".  Control, and smoothness.  That's like with the sights on my gun, only after I look at a lot of holes in the target, do I consider whether or not I need to adjust the sights, which I no longer do, if the group is not centered the same way in multiple targets.  But that's when I get home usually.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/10/2018, 3:55 pm

"1,198 posts later and the words are still highly indicative of not calling the shot.  

I've had a wonderful time.  Thanks for all the fish. 

And remember folks:  A Forum dedicated to the sport of Bullseye shooting

CR"






CR, thank you anyway.

You're correct, I can not call my shots, and while I try, I'm wrong far more than right.  I wish I could.  Sorry for wasting your time, but thanks for trying.

I will be back over at the eye hospital I volunteer at in late October; I will see if they have a suggestion, or better yet, an explanation.  I feel like a color blind person, with everyone around me seeing something I can't.  I'm supposed to see where the sights were at the split second when the gun fired, but I have never, ever, been able to do that.  It's not for the lack of trying!

(I also have never been able to catch a ball, because I have zero depth perception.  My eyes don't work together, and while prism glasses might have helped, it's too late for that.  Had cataracts, but now fixed.  My vision is supposed to be "normal", but I've got floaters that remove most of the detail unless I move my eyes around.  I don't think any of those things are the problem though.)
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Jack H on 9/10/2018, 11:20 pm

mikemyers wrote:
CR10X wrote:............Performance is to be measured by ability to call the shot, group size and number of complete / correct repetitions of each training exercise. All of which is to be recorded and reviewed.  The target is irrelevant, unimportant and basically a distraction.  (Especially those expensive and useless "shoot and see" targets that simply train the shooter to look at the target.  You should be using a lot of "blank" targets..........
I understand about using a blank piece of paper for a target, or turning the target backwards, for shooting with iron sights.  My brain "knows" where the center of the paper is.  This doesn't work for my red dot sight, all I see is white - no indication about location.  I can draw a large "plus" sign, or make a small circle for where to aim.


For anything I can think of in my life, as I trained I could see improvement, maybe after hours, or days, or weeks, but I could see progress.  I put up a B-8 target, to date and save, like a test.   In my mind, what I am training for is to gain the ability to hold the gun steady enough for a long enough time to align the sights (and not disturb the sights when the gun fires).  The grouping is tightening up.  Below is a photo of the last target today.  The target before it looked the same.  It's not great, but it is better than what I could do before........25 yards, one handed.    

I'll be out of town for a week, but will pick up again where I left off.  Thank you all, for your patience with me.




Mike, your targets are not bad at all.  Consistency is apparent and groups are shrinking.  I am pretty sure you are at what we call a plateau.  I believe you should now forget about the target and the score.  Just note the result of group size and consistency.  What you need to do is train towards seeing the sight at the bang and and train to see  in the sight what you want to see the sight do.  And to train for the best feel and ease to get the sight and gun to do what you want.  The shot happens on the firing line.  What's on the target is just the result. 
So ask yourself did I see the sight at the bang?  Did it do what I want?  Did it feel good, and was it easy?
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Tim:H11 on 9/10/2018, 11:23 pm

Good gosh already, I thought my posts were long!
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Clamps on 9/11/2018, 5:03 pm

Following Mike's posts has been very insightful for a novice like myself. He's certainly more articulate than I'm capable of which makes my life way easier. 

 I read this forum every morning at breakfast and during lunch too. Sometimes it strikes me as kinda of astonishing that there are world class shooters responding, giving me, an average Joe advice for FREE!

 Ever since deciding to give BE an honest effort there has been someone or something at just the right moment to keep me inspired. Much of that has come from here. Thanks .

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by CR10X on 9/11/2018, 5:45 pm

My time is not wasted.  I spend it as I wish. Some may understand. 

In order to improve, first we must see, not just look. 

CR

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/11/2018, 11:10 pm

Thank you all!

I sent a detailed PM to xmastershooter, explaining all the issues with my eyes, and asking him if I have some kind of physical problem, which is why I can't "see" where the sights were at the moment the gun fired.  Or maybe I don't, and it's something else.

Jack H: Thank you.  Also, you wrote "What you need to do is train towards seeing the sight at the bang and and train to see  in the sight what you want to see the sight do."
I have been trying for ten years to recall where the sights were at the *bang*, buy I'm having as much trouble as my colorblind nephews have in telling blue from green.  My brain doesn't seem to have any "after image" that I can recall.  Maybe that's because of all the problems in my eyes that I explained to xmastershooter.


Tim, I enjoy writing.  I used to write and photograph for several magazines, all over the world.  Was very enjoyable at the time.  I used to write all sorts of things - many of them much, much, much longer than what I write here.  When I'm here, I try to write what I'm thinking in a way that people will understand what I meant, but I keep finding that I failed.  It's very difficult to write things that others will understand what I meant, which might be different than what I write.


Clamps, thank you.  I have a feeling you understand how I feel, better than the people who are far, far better than me, and who are taking their time to help me.  Sometimes I feel like I'm capable of basic mathematics, but I'm finding myself in a class about calculus.  So, I do my best to understand.


CR, I learn very slowly.  Ask the guys in the reloading forum.  Still, if I keep at it, eventually things start to make sense, and everything works.  I know what you meant by "In order to improve, first we must see, not just look. "
.....but learning how to SEE is not easy...........Or, one of my favorite lines, EVERYTHING IS EASY TO DO, ONCE YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT.  



Maybe I should do what Jack wrote, ignore what he suggests I ignore, relax and stop "trying" so hard.  Maybe everything will fall into place if I do that.  Maybe I'll forget about targets completely, and go back to shooting at sheets of white paper for a while.  Maybe if I stop thinking about all that other stuff, my brain will find a way to notice where the sights were when the gun fires.

(I'll be gone next week, and in six weeks I head back to India for several months.)
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/13/2018, 11:50 am

Two things happened recently.

First, after a discussion with 'xmastershooter', the issues I had/have with my eyes are NOT my problem, meaning that excuse goes into the dumpster.

I then did a pretty thorough search on the internet to find out HOW it's possible for me to learn what you guys want me to do.  The best thing I could find was an old discussion on the Brian Enos forum.  I read things there about how I could start training myself to be able to recall where the sights were at the moment the gun fired.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/99335-learning-to-call-your-shot/


Like I usually do, overthinking stuff, I copied the whole discussion and starting deleting extra information, until what was left was something I thought might help ME on a path to where I can call shots.  

(To me, much of the discussion so far is people telling me to do something I don't know how to do, and there is very little about how I can train my mind to make tis possible.)

The following is what I condensed things down to.  I will print it out, and start with the small steps that will help me get to where I'm able to do the rest.  There are several, including just SEEING the brass as it's ejected, or SEEING the flash of the gun.  The theory is that once I can do that, I can keep remembering more.  Apparently it's all going to my brain, but I nee to get my brain to pay ATTENTION to those things.   (It doesn't say this in the summary, but I figure if I shoot at a blank piece of white paper, maybe I can re-direct my attention to more useful purposes).

==============================================================

Summary from the Discussion in the Brian Enos Forum:


ATTENTION
It helps to learn when a problem can be broken down into the lowest common denominator. In this case, that denominator is attention.  Where exactly, is your attention at the instant the shot fires.? It is very simple, but also very important to fully understand. Very few people have trained their attention to "be" where it is directed.  For example, in order to know where my attention is, I may need to decide where it is not. "Gee? Did I blink?" (I hope it ain't there) "Where is the bullet hole?" (I hope it isn't there either)….  Where should your attention be? If the eyes were open, they were seeing. What happens, happens really fast, so the brain may not comprehend what was seen, and therefore classify it as being of no importance. It is of extreme importance.  This is exactly where attention needs to be: What did the eyes see at the exact moment the shot broke? It may start as just a hint of movement, the recoil impulse is pretty quick, as most people would count quickness. But, it happened! If the eyes were open, they saw what happened!  With full attention, the mind can gradually begin to decode the blur of movement. Eventually, it may even become clear. Just hold to the fact that you saw it happen. It was right there, just as certainly as if it was captured on high-speed video. The eyes see everything. The brain has to learn to de-code what the eyes see. The hand is never quicker than the eye, as we have been told. But the hand is always quicker than the untrained mind. 
 
TO CALL THE SHOT, TRAIN THE MIND
Shot calling begins with seeing what you need to see before you break the shot. You must see the sight/dot clearly before the shot breaks. After learning to do this, shot calling will come. All the information needed to call the shot has been recorded in the mind. It takes a little time to allow this information to be processed and utilized. 
 
SEE THE FRONT SIGHT/DOT
See your sight/dot on every shot. Whether or not you remember it at the time you break the shot is not nearly as important as seeing it before the shot breaks. Processing what you see and correcting it at speed will come, but it will never come if it is not there to process.  You are striving to allow your brain to process information based on a "picture" that is probably happening in a thousandth of a second.  It’s a process like driving. First you learn how to brake, shift etc. Then later you can drift through a unknown corner at 9/10ths.  Do the drills, dryfire, live-fire, matches, etc.  Remember the final goal and work towards it. Practice eye drills. start paying attention. Do you see the fire in front of the gun? Do you see the brass? That’s not the goal but sometimes it "wakes up" people to how little they see or input.  In order to "call your shots" you have to have a precise sight picture and really focus on the front sight. Really notice how the front sight tracks; up and back down. If you are very focused on that front sight, you will "see" in a split second where the front-sight/dot was when the shot broke. Aside from the obvious like open eyes, it's not what you see but what you have registered in your brain as happened. It's still difficult to describe but you can’t just stare hard at the front sight. That is actually taking away from paying attention to what is happening.
 
SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER
If all else fails, camp out on the front sight and then “squeeze the trigger”. In time with proper attention, focus and recall the positioning of the front-rear sight or dot and relationship with target will be remembered as the shot fires and the muzzle lifts. When recall of the image matches the outcome at the target, you have called the shot.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/17/2018, 11:52 am

I have two eye doctors in India who know my eyes inside and out (especially inside), and are aware of the problems I have.

I just got my answer as to why I can't do what you all want me to do.  It's a physical problem, not my not doing something right or wrong.


Here is my question to Dr. Christy, and her answer to me:

=================================================
Hello from mike. I have a question to ask you about my eyes. For bullseye pistol shooting, people tell me I need to remember exactly what I saw while looking at the target at the exact time the gun fires. I have never been able to remember exactly what I saw. People tell me that if I didn’t blink, I saw it, and I just need to find a way to remember exactly what I saw when the gun fired.     So far, I can’t remember. It is as if my eyes were closed.  My question for you is whether my diplopia might be the problem?  If my brain is blocking what my left eye is seeing, could this be the cause of my inability to remember exactly what my right eye was seeing?

=================================================

Yes... Probably... because the brain is confused on which is the exact place ( as to each eye sees in a different place - even in normal persons ...but the brain perfectly fuse the image and pin points it exact place - But in your situation, it doesn't happen )


=================================================

I can post here what is going on with my eyes, if anyone is interested;  I've already written about everything to xmastershooter.   

The reason I can't recall the "image" is that there is no image for me to recall.

Even before my accident, I have never had "stereo vision".  Dr. Christy told me earlier this year that if I tried to describe to you guys what is going on, you wouldn't have a clue, as both of your eyes work together, as they should



I am sorry for creating all the frustration here in this discussion, but you guys want me to do something that for me is not possible.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/17/2018, 11:57 am

most bullseye shooters wear a blinder so they are only shooting and seeing with one eye.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/17/2018, 12:24 pm

CM, I started using an occluder, which helps.
That's not my problem.
My brain has learned how to ignore that kind of information for 74 years.  
There is nothing stored from my right eye, because my brain has turned it off.

I think I will start by shooting at plain white targets, so there is nothing for me to concentrate on, and just learn to see the shell being ejected, or the flash from the gun.  There probably are exercises I can do to learn.

I will post a photo here of what the world looked like to me two years ago, after my accident.  Maybe then you'll understand......
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/17/2018, 12:28 pm

you should try a air pistol then shoot so flat and have no recoil that you should be able to pick up front sight placement as the shot broke.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 9/17/2018, 1:04 pm

I will do that when I get home next week.  

The only gun I have with me right now is my High Standard, and the only reason I brought that was to dry fire.

I think you're suggesting I use targets, and not the white paper?  I was all set to try Jack's suggestion:

"Mike, your targets are not bad at all.  Consistency is apparent and groups are shrinking.  I am pretty sure you are at what we call a plateau.  I believe you should now forget about the target and the score.  Just note the result of group size and consistency.  What you need to do is train towards seeing the sight at the bang and and train to see  in the sight what you want to see the sight do.  And to train for the best feel and ease to get the sight and gun to do what you want.  The shot happens on the firing line.  What's on the target is just the result.  
So ask yourself did I see the sight at the bang?  Did it do what I want?  Did it feel good, and was it easy?"




I have lots of suggestions for what to work on, but I'd like to do just one at a time.  I have a month before I go back to India.  I'll try to make the most of it.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

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