Ultradot negative magnification

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Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Virgil Kane on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:34 am

Just wondering if there is any way to reduce the negative magnification on Ultradots ?  Screw in lens in place of a sun shade? Cough up big bucks for a better dot? 
Every single one of mine (5) has it.

It never bothered me before but lately I've noticed it more and more.  Not that I'm a great shot but it sure would be nice to see the black through the Ultradot the same size as the naked eye.

Virgil

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by zanemoseley on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:41 am

Yeah I used to use matchdots but converted over to 9000SC's lately. I had to borrow a buddies pistol last weekend that had the Matchdot II on it, I noticed it some, has a fish eye effect when you're lowering on to the target. Perhaps its made worse since I shoot with 2 eyes open. If you can swing the cash and extra weight I like the 9000SC.

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am

Hunt for an older “Oakshore Electronics” Model. I use those and can shoot both eyes open. No imagery issues.
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Chris Miceli on Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:31 am

Buy 5 and look through each one, send back ones that you don’t like, I think it comes down to glass quality and tolerances.

Or buy an aimpoint and never worry about it again
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by SW-52 on Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:15 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Buy 5 and look through each one, send back ones that you don’t like, I think it comes down to glass quality and tolerances.

Or buy an aimpoint and never worry about it again
+1
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by bdas on Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:51 pm

I still cannot believe nobody makes 1.5x or 1.25x red dots for pistols.  That seems like it would be a real advantage (and not just for competitive bullseye shooting).

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by zanemoseley on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Magnified red dots are not legal in bullseye. The bullseye market is small enough to start with, then add the fact it would be non-legal dots and you market is smaller yet.

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by javaduke on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:35 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Magnified red dots are not legal in bullseye. The bullseye market is small enough to start with, then add the fact it would be non-legal dots and you market is smaller yet.
Hmm, the rulebook says, and I quote:
Open Division - Any semi-automatic handgun or revolver using any sights, including telescopic, are permitted with the exception of those sights that project an image on the target.

So a magnified red dot would be perfectly legal under the Open Division rules.

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Jon Eulette on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:36 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Magnified red dots are not legal in bullseye. The bullseye market is small enough to start with, then add the fact it would be non-legal dots and you market is smaller yet.
Where does it say you can’t use magnification in the rules? 
Jon
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:38 pm

I know an AMU shooter with a scope - a Gil hebard (Burris inthink...) scope on his 22.
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Virgil Kane on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:50 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:Buy 5 and look through each one, send back ones that you don’t like, I think it comes down to glass quality and tolerances.

Or buy an aimpoint and never worry about it again
Talked with a Master shooter last year in person that frequents this site. He thought the price difference wasn't worth spending.  But then if I could shoot like him I might not think so either.  I shoot both eyes open and can see a distinct reduction in target size with all my UD's.  Some are newer and some are old but they all have a reduction in target size.
I'll have to get someone to let me look through their Aimpoint and see for myself. 

 Maybe that Master shooter is keeping a well hidden secret from me. 

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by zanemoseley on Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:02 pm

Hmm. I was always under the assumption that magnification was not allowed. Guess I get to try out my Nightforce BR scope on my 45 wadgun, you think 42x will do?

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:18 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Hmm. I was always under the assumption that magnification was not allowed. Guess I get to try out my Nightforce BR scope on my 45 wadgun, you think 42x will do?

Check your rule book
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by SteveT on Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:50 pm

I think most of my UD's have a slight negative magnification. It is only a factor if you let it bother you. 

I don't know anyone who says that magnification is a benefit for a one handed pistol shooters. It not only magnifies the target, it also magnifies the wobble and movement.

I have an old Leopold 2x LER pistol cross-hair scope that I will sell if anyone is interested. $100 FTF (NE Illinois) or +$10 for USPS shipping. With my arms and eyes it does not look like 2x, more like 1.3-1.5x magnification. PM me or email sdturner (at) gmail.

I agree the price jump from UD to AP is big. UD hits the "good enough" sweet spot between cheap crap and military grade hardware, but they are far from perfect. 

The one Holosun I've looked at seemed pretty good. They appear to hit the same price-quality point, maybe a little better than UD. I've heard Primary Arms is the same as Holosun and I've heard good things about Sig Sauer's AP knock-offs in the same price range, but don't have any first hand experience. My only complaint with the Holosun is the 2MOA dot. I prefer bigger.
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by LenV on Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:31 pm

2X Red Dot scope...bad, bad, bad idea. Well this one was. I have it mounted on a pellet rifle now.

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by joy2shoot on Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:23 pm

SteveT wrote:... it also magnifies the wobble and movement...

I have a hard enough time accepting my wobble as it is.  But a magnified wobble?

I used a 9000SC for the first time a couple of weeks ago.  It was on a borrowed gun at a match (both my primary and backup had issues).  Other than the small amount of extra weight, the scope worked well.  No demagnification, clear optics, brightness adjustment easy to use, etc.

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by PhotoEscape on Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:53 pm

Zane,
I'm taking my hat off for you.  I've never seen anyone who can shoot anything with Nightforce 42x Benchrest mounted one handed.  It is even more challenging than shooting two handed full frame Nikon with 400mm F2.8 prime attached without tripod.  Besides about 3" eye relief might not be conducive for BE type shooting.

Well, I appreciate your sarcasm.  However you raise a valid question, - I have Bausch & Lomb 2x28 mounted on one of my 10mm revolvers.  One armed hold is challenging, but two armed is very nice.  About 9" eye relief if what one would need for BE, and this scope offers just that.  Another option would Leupold FXII 2x20.  Both scopes aren't much heavier than Aimpoint 9000SC.  Advantage here is in the fact that someone who shoots in prescription glasses have option to shoot without such.

Soliciting opinions!!
Thanks,
AP
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by dronning on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:32 pm

I have used a 2x and 4x scope on a Ransom Rest with very good results.  Just for giggles I dry fired the 4x offhand at a 50yd target, then took 5 shots, all in the black.  You kind of get overloaded from all the movement but it seemed to be more noticeable when my wobble settled.  You definitely can't be a dot watcher!  With practice I think a 1.5x or 2x might be doable but I don't believe it would improve your score.
- Dave
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by LenV on Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:49 am

If I needed another scope I would seriously consider the Aimpoint 3000 on Ebay right now. I don't even need it and I threw out a bid on it. I have one of these scopes on my Nelson and just love it. They have a 1" tube and all your 1" rings will fit. They are also a lot lighter then the 9000. Sold for 273.00

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aimpoint-3000-Red-dot-scope-used-with-rings/192706046425?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649



Last edited by LenV on Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:30 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Sold for 273.00 Good price)
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:45 pm

Very cool Len, I wish they still made that dot!
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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by bdas on Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:20 am

So, people have tried 2x and 4x, and the magnified wobble is too distracting (and the reduced field of view is probably not helpful, either, especially during rapid fire).  That's why I was, and still am, suggesting that a 1.5x or even a 1.25x magnification would be worth trying.  

Normally, I'm a dot watcher, but I've been trying the "look at the target, not at the dot" thing (with mixed results so far).  For that, in particular, those of us with terrible eyesight (that's me!) might benefit from SLIGHT magnification of the target.  And even when I focus on the dot, a slightly "closer" view of the target might be a genuine advantage.

Or, think of it this way... why do people complain about the slight (and it is slight) negative magnification that you get from some UltraDots?  Some people dislike that it's not exactly 1x because they shoot with both eyes open so the difference is distracting, or simply because it's a change from looking at the target directly, and then looking at the target through the scope.  But others complain that it's a disadvantage because the magnification is negative, so it makes the target look a little smaller and a little farther away.  I, for one, would like to try the reverse of that... a LITTLE bigger, and a LITTLE closer.

If UltraDot made a 1.25x version of the 30mm MatchDot II... I'd try it.

Dave

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Re: Ultradot negative magnification

Post by TomH_pa on Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:51 pm

What about something like this ?
http://www.championshooters.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=1562&virtuemart_category_id=102&Itemid=111

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