Service Rifle, 800 - 34X

Wow!
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/325512/us-army-marksmanship-unit-soldier-sets-shooting-record-with-first-ever-perfect-score-with-service-rifle

The game has changed. A friend shot 498 last weekend across the course. 223 scoped match rifle.

The 4x scope sure doesn't hurt. Still an amazing accomplishment. Sometimes I wonder if Hershels's 2680 will ever be increased to 2685 or even 2690.

It's almost funny to think of the optic advocates who were full of assurances that scores wouldn't change, just a couple years ago when the rule change was being proposed and discussed. I still sometimes wonder if they actually believed what they were saying, or if they really were that naive.

Oh well.

Which is not to say that this 800 score, or Brandon Green's scores at Perry last year, aren't amazing accomplishments.

Personally scopes did not matter for me.  I was an iron sight 2600 shooter and was a red dot 2600 shooter.  My difference was that I was not tired at the end of a red dot 2600+ score.  With iron sights I was exhausted mentally and physically.  What I do see is we old guys continue to shoot in our 60s and 70s and still shoot pretty good...

Well here are my thoughts on the perfect score shot with the service rifle using optics.  I congradulate SGT Cleland!  But, in my opinion it just tends to invalidate all of the years of previous competions that were shot using irons only.  Give it a few years and with the introduction of the new service pistol that replaced the Berretta they to will have optics and so the slippery slope has been started.  Eventually all EIC points will be earned using optic sighted firearms.  Such a shame.  We have seen such as the current list of acceptable service pistols is a joke, not to mention the external modifications that are now allowed.  I can remember when you could not even have hex headed grip screws.

Should they give shooters using iron sights a five point bonus?

CO1Mtn wrote:Should they give shooters using iron sights a five point bonus?

No.

An 800-34X is HARD for a service rifle, but I think there are bigger numbers out there for the hard holders.

Scopes changed the game, and service rifle matches are going to be like Bianchi Cup for the top shooters before too long.

I remember when the 9mm first became the service pistol.  Heard some old heads say that the distinguished badge won with a 9mm should be smaller than the one won with a 45.  I was one of them...

Axehandle wrote:I remember when the 9mm first became the service pistol.  Heard some old heads say that the distinguished badge won with a 9mm should be smaller that the one won with a 45.  I was one of them...

Service pistol should have a power factor.
It's always bemusing in all sports how one way of gaming the rules is considered absolutely fair and a rule change is supposedly going to kill the sport.

dronning wrote:[size=38]Hershel Anderson's 1974 record [/size][size=38]2680-159x still stands (irons). Optics haven't helped anyone top that yet.[/size]
[size=38]- Dave[/size]

Just my opinion but there is a BIG difference in going from an iron site pistol to red dot and going irons to 4x when a prone position is involved. Even standing with a rifle with a 4x is far easier.

The games change over time. M1 and load from the belt was surpassed by the M14. The AR15 made the M14 obsolete. 
Optics provide a way to level the playing field. Remember, this is a shooting contest not a seeing contest. Late 50s and trying to see the post, good luck. That drove a lot of hard holders to hang it up. More than a few people that have won the P100 and NTI shooting irons had exceptional eyesight.

Yes, this is a a shooting sport, but seeing is a big part of shooting along with balance, hand eye coordination, and stamina. Scopes are the biggest change I've seen in my thirty plus years of high power. I wished they would create an iron sight class, so irons don't go totally obsolete. Several sight companies have ceased production.

The scope in standing is a distraction with the wobble it reveals. Like pistol, most of us have to learn to accept it. Those that came from Silhouette, like Jared and Justin, had an early advantage in that regard, IMO. For me, it has screwed up my hold, theres no longer a carry handle to wrap my fingers through.

Sitting, the addition of weight in the center, and off axis with my cant, seems to be a small issue to adapt to. And again, the clear visual of pulse bounce is distracting. Some of this I think I can fix by going back to a standard handguard.

Prone ... holy cow. I haven't yet beaten my iron sight scores, but my eyes don't hurt at the end of the day like they used to.

As for iron sights, switch to long range like everyone else when they get old ;-)

And there's always smallbore ... if you can find a match anywhere.

Those of you that keep saying this was due to the scope seem to forget one thing.  Green, Bahten, McNeil, Hudock, Conant, etc.  were all there that day, with the same nightforce scopes.  By that logic, shouldn't all of them have shot 800's. 

I have shot many times in the fishtail wind that is the Oak Ridge 600 yard line.  It ain't easy.  I have shot 199's with irons in 3X600 matches when I had 15 year younger eyes, but have never cleaned it.  It's just not that easy.

The thing for me with scopes is I can enjoy a match finally because I don't have a splitting headache at the end of SFP.  On the way back from Interservice I stopped in Pelham and shot a 100yd reduced match for the fun of it.  The 1 point I dropped in SFP was because I made a bad shot, not because my magic scope let me down.  My magic scope did keep my head from hurting at the end of the match.

Scopes don't make you a better wind reader.  They do allow you to either hold off or shoot in a wind bracket, which makes the strategy easier, but if you can't read wind, that is of no use.

Cleland caught every pickup, letoff and switch at the 600 and took care of his short line.  That is why he set this record.

As for scopes pricing everyone out of the game, my WOA pinned carry handle cost $275 and the adjustable FSB was another $45.  My MARK AR scope cost $350 and the gas block was $25.  If you can't clean things with this combo, you can't clean it with a Nightforce.

Hope I didn't hurt any feelings with this post, but if you can't shoot at the 490/790 level with irons, you ain't going to do it with a scope.

mprince wrote:if you can't shoot at the 490/790 level with irons, you ain't going to do it with a scope.

That's about where I landed. I did shoot in the 480s once (ONCE!) with irons, and I didn't see that I needed to spend 3 grand or more for 6 points, especially when I was still catching first leathers with irons.

($3K comes from the fact that I have one SR upper, and a .22LR upper with which I do most of my training. I would have had to buy a new .223 upper, a scope, another scope for the .22LR upper, and somehow figure out how to get it mounted on that upper. I could have done it more cheaply in terms of $$ outlay, but it was going to be at least $3K of pain-in-the-ass regardless.)

Yep. Generally speaking seldom does anyone who isn’t a HM clean a 600 SFP. Bad breaks abound. The one area that has improved is X-count. The AR is a better platform than any previous. Most are capable of sub-moa. This leads to higher x numbers.

Allen Barnett wrote:But, in my opinion it just tends to invalidate all of the years of previous competions that were shot using irons only.  Give it a few years and with the introduction of the new service pistol that replaced the Berretta they to will have optics and so the slippery slope has been started.  Eventually all EIC points will be earned using optic sighted firearms.  Such a shame.  We have seen such as the current list of acceptable service pistols is a joke, not to mention the external modifications that are now allowed.  I can remember when you could not even have hex headed grip screws.

I don't understand this logic unfortunately.  The new service pistol doesn't have an issued optic and there are no plans for issued pistols to have optics in any qualification course of fire.

The change to CMP rules accommodating 4.5 power rifle optics was to reflect the standard issue rifle combat optic and took almost 15 years to implement.  I support the change, since I found it idiotic that my exactly as-issued carbine with ACOG was considered a match rifle while the heavy floating full-length barreled, Geissele-triggered rifles with 1/4 minute rear sights weighing in at over 15 pounds were "service rifles".

Prohibiting hex headed grip screws was always a stupid and draconian rule.  I hope we're not looking back on those days too fondly.  

So the list of approved pistols spans 3 pages.  I think that's great for opening doors to the sport and doesn't take anything away from the definition of "Service pistol" or the accomplishments of generations past.  And what really changed?  For every H&K USP and Walther P99 I see at nationals this year, I know I will see 100 1911s.

I do look on the days where people achieved their scores under different rules as a special accomplishment, sure.  It helps me get out of my own head with regards to what's really important, namely sight picture, trigger control.

one other good thing is scopes are keeping shooters in the sport, 

I know several Competitors that were thinking about going Long Range or Match Rifle (longer sight radius and better irons, or scope)and giving up Service Rifle due to eyesight issues

one Master I know was about done, then started shooting again scoped and has improved his scores,