What size T&B bullet diameter for Pardini 32ACP?

I'm about to load some T&B 32 cal. bullets for my Pardini 32ACP.  The bullets are currently .314" in diameter.  Should they be sized to something smaller?  Based on searches here I plan to use 1.4 grs. of N310 with .840" COAL and .330 Crimp.

.314 is a good starting point.

OK, I loaded .314" bullets with 1.5 grs. of N310 with .860 COAL and .330 crimp.  I couldn't get my Dillon XL650 to dispense 1.4 grs.  Also, my target .840 COAL seemed too close to bullet shoulder so I used .860 instead.  I'll see how they shoot tomorrow.

beeser wrote:I'm about to load some T&B 32 cal. bullets for my Pardini 32ACP.  The bullets are currently .314" in diameter.  Should they be sized to something smaller?  Based on searches here I plan to use 1.4 grs. of N310 with .840" COAL and .330 Crimp.

I am using those Bullets.   Might bump the powder up a little, but pretty sure 1.4 of VVN310 will work fine for the short line.  

Pardini says these are the right size for a recent vintage stock barrel.

beeser wrote:OK, I loaded .314" bullets with 1.5 grs. of N310 with .860 COAL and .330 crimp.  I couldn't get my Dillon XL650 to dispense 1.4 grs.  Also, my target .840 COAL seemed too close to bullet shoulder so I used .860 instead.  I'll see how they shoot tomorrow.

Chances are good, they will lock into the lans and you won’t be able to extract a live round from the chamber.   I urge you to reduce the OAL to .845.  

If you don’t have the extra small powder bar, you won’t be able to dispense 1.4g.  But 1.5 will do fine.   If you want to test lighter loads you will probably need to get this:

https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1267

A word of caution on the .330 crimp. It might swage your .314 lead bullet tooo much. Depends on your case wall thickness. If the case wall is 0.010" the .330 crimp will reduce the bullet diameter to .310 which would not provide ideal engagement or obduration.

5shooter wrote:A word of caution on the .330 crimp. It might swage your .314 lead bullet tooo much. Depends on your case wall thickness. If the case wall is 0.010" the .330 crimp will reduce the bullet diameter to .310 which would not provide ideal engagement or obduration.

If you want the bullets  to not slide in the case, you will need at least a .330 crimp.   Dave Wilson crimps his to .325 because of that issue.  He found that air pressure in the case, was popping the bullets up.

I found accuracy went down quickly from 1.8gr of N310 even on the short line. At least with my gun I stick with 1.8

Schaumannk wrote:

5shooter wrote:A word of caution on the .330 crimp. It might swage your .314 lead bullet tooo much. Depends on your case wall thickness. If the case wall is 0.010" the .330 crimp will reduce the bullet diameter to .310 which would not provide ideal engagement or obduration.

If you want the bullets  to not slide in the case, you will need at least a .330 crimp.   Dave Wilson crimps his to .325 because of that issue.  He found that air pressure in the case, was popping the bullets up.

He loads to an OAL of .885. That gives more uncrimped bullet sidewall with full engagement, and a shorter crimped length/less static friction to keep the bullet in place. He also uses RP brass with, I believe, a thinner side wall. I use Federal cases with a 0.010" to 0.0105" thickness wall, crimp to 0.334", and have never had the slippery .64gr. poly-coated T&B LSWC bullets move in the case. Just a word of caution, since the OP didn't say what cases they'll be using.

5shooter wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:

5shooter wrote:A word of caution on the .330 crimp. It might swage your .314 lead bullet tooo much. Depends on your case wall thickness. If the case wall is 0.010" the .330 crimp will reduce the bullet diameter to .310 which would not provide ideal engagement or obduration.

If you want the bullets  to not slide in the case, you will need at least a .330 crimp.   Dave Wilson crimps his to .325 because of that issue.  He found that air pressure in the case, was popping the bullets up.

He loads to an OAL of .885. That gives more uncrimped bullet sidewall with full engagement, and a shorter crimped length/less static friction to keep the bullet in place. He also uses RP brass with, I believe, a thinner side wall. I use Federal cases with a 0.010" to 0.0105" thickness wall, crimp to 0.334", and have never had the slippery .64gr. poly-coated T&B LSWC bullets move in the case. Just a word of caution, since the OP didn't say what cases they'll be using.

I’m going to concede that  the problem here is that we are not talking about anywhere close to the same bullet 
. Dave Wilson’s bullets are hollow base and have a very big base especially  the ones that are .314 diameter.  The OAL can be longer because the nose on his bullet is also much longer than the T&Bs. It could be that it is the hollow base that causes the issue.  By the way, Dave’s bullets,  crimped to .325 definitely hold the ten ring at fifty yards.  We tried them down in Phoenix.   

However, with too much shoulder a .314 bullet  will lock up the action, and the only good way to get it out, is to pull the trigger.   Round nose bullets  don’t have that issue, and the JHP’s don’t do that either.   
I need to go back down and measure my brass.   Because if I recall correctly, the Starline  at .334 is effectively zero crimp.  
I’m not sure what the worry is here.   The T&B Bullets will shoot acceptably at the 25 yard line, but not well enough to use at the fifty, no matter how you crimp them in my opinion.  The bigger problem is going to be getting them set in the case straight if you don’t have the ability to expand the case mouth evenly and correctly.

I wish I could have found a setup to make Travis’s Bullets fly good but I didn’t! Good luck and hope you stumble on something positive

They'll get the job done at 25 yards. This was at Cardinal

I don't have the shooting abilities as most here but found the T&Bs loaded as mentioned above to perform at 25 yds. as well as the gold standard Hornady 85 gr. XTP using 1.6 grs. of N310.  Don't place much stock in this because again, my shooting abilities at present are the weakest link in the effort.  I have no idea what effect standard deviation plays in all of this but the T&Bs had a SD of 11 compared to 17 of the XTPs.  I forgot to mention in the beginning that I used new Starline brass.  I plan to experiment more with the T&Bs, perhaps trying out some of the setups mentioned above.

Back again with trying to understand more about how to load these T&Bs.  After some additional research it seems there may be a benefit in using one of the UniqueTek powder funnels instead of the stock Dillon one.  My reloading press is a Dillon XL650.  As mentioned before I'm using Starline brass and .314" T&Bs.  The Dillon expander portion of the funnel measures .3075".  If I'm reading UniqueTek's website correctly they recommend the .3175" expander, .0035" over the .314" bullet diameter.  Starline brass has a wall thickness of .012".  Factoring in a .314" bullet that leaves an outside case diameter .338" without any swaging done by the bullet.  Is a .330" crimp appropriate based on this?  I've come across a lot of N310 load recommendations for this bullet and 1.8 grs. seems to be a favorite.  Any new input on this?  And lastly I'm still confused about the COAL.  I used .860" before but .840" seems to be the prevailing length.  Again, any new info. on this?

beeser wrote:Back again with trying to understand more about how to load these T&Bs.  After some additional research it seems there may be a benefit in using one of the UniqueTek powder funnels instead of the stock Dillon one.  My reloading press is a Dillon XL650.  As mentioned before I'm using Starline brass and .314" T&Bs.  The Dillon expander portion of the funnel measures .3075".  If I'm reading UniqueTek's website correctly they recommend the .3175" expander, .0035" over the .314" bullet diameter.  Starline brass has a wall thickness of .012".  Factoring in a .314" bullet that leaves an outside case diameter .338" without any swaging done by the bullet.  Is a .330" crimp appropriate based on this?  I've come across a lot of N310 load recommendations for this bullet and 1.8 grs. seems to be a favorite.  Any new input on this?  And lastly I'm still confused about the COAL.  I used .860" before but .840" seems to be the prevailing length.  Again, any new info. on this?

Have you measured the outside dimensions of the mouth of the unexpanded Starline brass? This is what you are going to be measuring after crimp so it might help to do this.   I generally think .330 is a decent crimp.

Schaumannk wrote:

beeser wrote:Back again with trying to understand more about how to load these T&Bs.  After some additional research it seems there may be a benefit in using one of the UniqueTek powder funnels instead of the stock Dillon one.  My reloading press is a Dillon XL650.  As mentioned before I'm using Starline brass and .314" T&Bs.  The Dillon expander portion of the funnel measures .3075".  If I'm reading UniqueTek's website correctly they recommend the .3175" expander, .0035" over the .314" bullet diameter.  Starline brass has a wall thickness of .012".  Factoring in a .314" bullet that leaves an outside case diameter .338" without any swaging done by the bullet.  Is a .330" crimp appropriate based on this?  I've come across a lot of N310 load recommendations for this bullet and 1.8 grs. seems to be a favorite.  Any new input on this?  And lastly I'm still confused about the COAL.  I used .860" before but .840" seems to be the prevailing length.  Again, any new info. on this?

Have you measured the outside dimensions of the mouth of the unexpanded Starline brass? This is what you are going to be measuring after crimp so it might help to do this.   I generally think .330 is a decent crimp.

The outside diameter of the case mouth before expansion but after sizing is .334".  I didn't think it mattered because it will change after being expanded.

beeser wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:

beeser wrote:Back again with trying to understand more about how to load these T&Bs.  After some additional research it seems there may be a benefit in using one of the UniqueTek powder funnels instead of the stock Dillon one.  My reloading press is a Dillon XL650.  As mentioned before I'm using Starline brass and .314" T&Bs.  The Dillon expander portion of the funnel measures .3075".  If I'm reading UniqueTek's website correctly they recommend the .3175" expander, .0035" over the .314" bullet diameter.  Starline brass has a wall thickness of .012".  Factoring in a .314" bullet that leaves an outside case diameter .338" without any swaging done by the bullet.  Is a .330" crimp appropriate based on this?  I've come across a lot of N310 load recommendations for this bullet and 1.8 grs. seems to be a favorite.  Any new input on this?  And lastly I'm still confused about the COAL.  I used .860" before but .840" seems to be the prevailing length.  Again, any new info. on this?

Have you measured the outside dimensions of the mouth of the unexpanded Starline brass? This is what you are going to be measuring after crimp so it might help to do this.   I generally think .330 is a decent crimp.

The outside diameter of the case mouth before expansion but after sizing is .334".  I didn't think it mattered because it will change after being expanded.

 So the internal dimensions at the mouth of the case are already smaller than the base of your bullet? Correct?  Because .334 minus .024 equals .311. So, my point is, the bullet is already squeezed just a bit by seating it.  Theoretically you could crimp back to .334 and you would have a light crimp on the bullet.  

 You want to have enough crimp to keep the bullet from sliding in the case, and also enough so it feeds correctly.  Although I have found a lot of guns more picky than the Pardini.  Keep your OAL below .845 for the TB 64g bullet.  When your brass is once fired you will find that it is shorter, and you can get away with an OAL of .840 without crimping over the bullet shoulder.

As an afterthought,  your case should probably be measured after you put it through your resizing die, to get the true dimensions prior to loading.  I’m going to go down and try a before and after on mine, and report back.

Schaumannk wrote:As an afterthought,  your case should probably be measured after you put it through your resizing die, to get the true dimensions prior to loading.  I’m going to go down and try a before and after on mine, and report back.

A couple of posts back I mentioned measuring the case diameter after sizing it but before putting through the powder funnel.

beeser wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:As an afterthought,  your case should probably be measured after you put it through your resizing die, to get the true dimensions prior to loading.  I’m going to go down and try a before and after on mine, and report back.

A couple of posts back I mentioned measure the case diameter after sizing it but before putting through the powder funnel.

I did that,   With my particular Redding die it looks like more .331 than .334 after resizing

Since the inside diameter of a sized case is considerably smaller than the bullet diameter I wanted to see how much the bullet would swage when loaded.  I did that, pulled the bullet and it doesn't squish down one bit.  The bullet remains the same diameter.  I then checked the hardness of the bullet and found it to have a BHN of around 14.  Seems the hardness of the bullet makes the initial case diameter irrelevant.

Schaumannk wrote:

beeser wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:As an afterthought,  your case should probably be measured after you put it through your resizing die, to get the true dimensions prior to loading.  I’m going to go down and try a before and after on mine, and report back.

A couple of posts back I mentioned measure the case diameter after sizing it but before putting through the powder funnel.

I did that,   With my particular Redding die it looks like more .331 than .334 after resizing

I too use the Redding dies and come up with the same measurements.

There is no doubt that the T&B Bullets are hard.  Which could be one of the reasons why they aren’t particularly accurate.

I loaded some more T&Bs today but made a few changes.  The COAL is now .845" and crimped at .334".  The logic behind the latter - using a bullet diameter of .314 and a case wall thickness of .011" (different that what I mentioned earlier) leaves a filled case diameter of .336".  So that leaves about a .001" crimp on each side, practically no crimp at all.  I figure the sized inside case diameter is already much smaller than the bullet diameter and therefore providing adequate hold on the bullet.  I'll make sure the bullet doesn't move before firing off too many of them.

Also, although hard to measure the COAL of .845" leaves about a .020" projection from the case mouth to end of bullet skirt.

Any thoughts on what I'm doing would be appreciated.

Edit:  Forgot to mention 1.6 grs. of N310 was used.

beeser wrote:I loaded some more T&Bs today but made a few changes.  The COAL is now .845" and crimped at .334".  The logic behind the latter - using a bullet diameter of .314 and a case wall thickness of .011" (different that what I mentioned earlier) leaves a filled case diameter of .336".  So that leaves about a .001" crimp on each side, practically no crimp at all.  I figure the sized inside case diameter is already much smaller than the bullet diameter and therefore providing adequate hold on the bullet.  I'll make sure the bullet doesn't move before firing off too many of them.

Also, although hard to measure the COAL of .845" leaves about a .020" projection from the case mouth to end of bullet skirt.

Any thoughts on what I'm doing would be appreciated.

Edit:  Forgot to mention 1.6 grs. of N310 was used.

I like the 1.6.   It is a nice compromise, and you should be able to load the 85g Hornady JHP with good accuracy at the same powder charge.  You will need to adjust the seating die for an OAL of around .895