Camp Atterbury 2021?

First topic message reminder :

Is there anyone out there who can share some impressions from the NRA National Matches at Camp Atterbury?

I would love to go see for myself but I haven't been able to take the time off from work that would be required to shoot both Perry and Atterbury.  At best I might be able to go look around on Friday afternoon. 

Specifically, I'd like to know about:

1) Range conditions - What's it like to shoot a match there?  Is it the sort of place where you'd feel ready to shoot a personal best?

2) Lodging - What's the availability, cost, proximity?  If 600 shooters come next year, will there be places for them to sleep?

3) Food - What's available on base?  Off base?  

4) Recreation - Are there fun things to do after shooting, or for non-competing family members?

My expectation is that the NRA will just carry over the same modus operandi they've been using at Perry for years, so things should run fairly smoothly.  The catch, I imagine, is that they'll have to groom a new batch of local talent to fill out the lower ranks of the operation.

john bickar wrote:What direction does the firing line face?

Down range

Jon Eulette wrote:

john bickar wrote:What direction does the firing line face?

Down range

Jon, if I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you.

South facing range based off pictures and approximate time of shooting.

The rifle ranges are south facing. I don't know about this new pistol range.

I’d say south by the shadows

A bunch of us stood on the range on Monday with our cell phone compasses wobbling trying to figure out the exact orientation. According to my Chinese made phone it is facing just slightly east of south. Or was that west of south? It is close to almost anyway.

Pistol range faces SSW. In the morning the firing line is completely shaded. In the early afternoon the sun shines on the front 2-3 feet of the concrete pad (and tables this year). I heard there is a plan to move the target line so the firing line can be back from the front edge.

This Google image was taken before the range was built, but the firing line parallels the road. And they were shooting full auto 50BMG on the next range to the west today.

It sounds like the issues with the pistol range can be fixed without a major overhaul.

Are there any plans to hold matches there between this year's Nationals and the 2022 Nationals? I am very curious and would like to try this range for myself.

Since, unlike Perry, the Atterbury range is a fixed installation that won't be used for rifle qualifications, perhaps it could be used in the "off season" without too much trouble for the Indiana National Guard.

I’ve read currently not a pro gun commandant

Jon Eulette wrote:

john bickar wrote:What direction does the firing line face?

Down range

 That is funny,funny, funny!

Orpanaut wrote:It sounds like the issues with the pistol range can be fixed without a major overhaul.  

Are there any plans to hold matches there between this year's Nationals and the 2022 Nationals?  I am very curious and would like to try this range for myself.

Since, unlike Perry, the Atterbury range is a fixed installation that won't be used for rifle qualifications, perhaps it could be used in the "off season" without too much trouble for the Indiana National Guard.

I would think  pulling the turning system, ripping up five 400’ long concrete target lines. Re-pouring said concrete,  installing target turning system that has been been upgraded with something other than aluminum  target frames, would be some what costly. Better to have done it right the first time…. But don’t ask me….

Danehogle wrote:

Orpanaut wrote:It sounds like the issues with the pistol range can be fixed without a major overhaul.  

Are there any plans to hold matches there between this year's Nationals and the 2022 Nationals?  I am very curious and would like to try this range for myself.

Since, unlike Perry, the Atterbury range is a fixed installation that won't be used for rifle qualifications, perhaps it could be used in the "off season" without too much trouble for the Indiana National Guard.

I would think  pulling the turning system, ripping up five 400’ long concrete target lines. Re-pouring said concrete,  installing target turning system that has been been upgraded with something other than aluminum  target frames, would be some what costly. Better to have done it right the first time…. But done ask me….

It really depends on the contract and the warranty provisions.   A simple extension on the roof and cutting the box every ten firing points where there is a break anyway might be the cheapest solution.

I would think  pulling the turning system, ripping up five 400’ long concrete target lines. Re-pouring said concrete,  installing target turning system that has been been upgraded with something other than aluminum  target frames, would be some what costly. Better to have done it right the first time…. But don’t ask me….

There’s never enough time to do it right, but there plenty of time and Money to do it over.

xman wrote:

radjag wrote:The Atterbury range, initially, looked quite impressive. But, as always, the devil is in the details.

Despite a very wide and smooth concrete slab, the folding tables which are the "benches" are positioned right at the front edge so that shooters are standing in the sun (yay!) or, possibly on Sunday, in the rain that misses the roof overhang (boo!).

Using folding tables for the shooting benches is problematic. I am 6'3" and when I put my pistol box on a folding table used as a shooting bench, even at its highest point my spotting scope is still 6 inches short of eye level. Folding tables are about 30" tall IIRC.

I carry a "booster" box to lift the pistol box up about 7 inches.

I shoot at 1 club where the concrete apron extends quite a distance in front of the benches. The benches are high enough that an AD would go into the grass. The extended apron also allows for better brass policing/retrieval.

At another club the firing line places the shooters and equipment in a real tough sun field. The same club uses folding tables so a double whammy. The club is in the process of installing a turning target line. Maybe the designer will move the target line closer to the firing line and thusly getting the firing line into some shade. The apron does have some room to spare.
 
Am just glad to have 3 clubs within 2 hours of me with active BE programs. Warts and all.

Here is my BE gear went shooting from folding tables.

Danehogle wrote:

Orpanaut wrote:It sounds like the issues with the pistol range can be fixed without a major overhaul.  

Are there any plans to hold matches there between this year's Nationals and the 2022 Nationals?  I am very curious and would like to try this range for myself.

Since, unlike Perry, the Atterbury range is a fixed installation that won't be used for rifle qualifications, perhaps it could be used in the "off season" without too much trouble for the Indiana National Guard.

I would think  pulling the turning system, ripping up five 400’ long concrete target lines. Re-pouring said concrete,  installing target turning system that has been been upgraded with something other than aluminum  target frames, would be some what costly. Better to have done it right the first time…. But don’t ask me….

From what's been posted here, it sounds like the main issues at the Atterbury range are:

1) The firing line is too close to the front of the concrete pad and roof.

2) The target frames are high and difficult to reach.

It doesn't seem like either problem would require ripping up the concrete.  Just extend the roof another two feet forward (which, admittedly, might require replacing the entire roof and its supports) and either replace the target frames or add some way for shooters to reach them. 

I don't think anyone here disagrees that the original design was flawed.

There is also the problem with targets that don’t fully face. They turn and are bladed away at a 20 degree angle some more maybe. Some are flat and some blade. They say they can’t fix them and just ask us to find a different point to fire from. To me that has been the most frustrating part of the targetry. Oh and folks thought canton is bad about targets turning and shaking for 2 seconds… some of these Atterbury targets wave back and forth after turning for the entire timed fire. 
It has potential to be really good I think. Just currently frustrating.

The current range is built for 200 positions, so they could handle 400 shooters with 2 relays.

We had a failure on one end of the range today and about 10 shooters had to move to the other end to finish CF second relay. I was to take a look at it tomorrow. I was told the bolt holding the rod-end broke. If this was a metal rod-end it must have had a flaw of been unbelievably cheap. Someone said it was made of plastic, but wasn't that mechanically inclined. I took this picture of the targets today. They are made in blocks of 10, with one air cylinder controlling 2 blocks (20 targets total) and the last target in the chain has a stop. I'm going to look closer at it tomorrow.

Are there issues with the new range, yes. Can they be resolved, yes. But my impression is that this range has great potential as it matures. I like the setting and while the tournament was smaller than one would expect for the national championship, there was a solid group of competitors. A lot of familiar faces and of course some noticeable perhaps by their absence. I wanted very much to be there for the first one and am very glad i was. I had a very good time, actually shot pretty good considering with my move this year my shooting and practice has been impeded. I will make next years match, god willing, and would encourage as many of you as can to do so as well.

BTW, did I say we have cover and a concrete pad?.........

I want to start exactly where Weber1b ended - this new range has great potential, and most important features, IMHO, are in place - solid concrete pad and roof over the shooters head!  These are the critical features!  Anyone can appreciate that, especially after shooting matches in Canton and Perry earlier.  I can foresee comments to that extend, like "tough it up", but.......

I also want to commend outstanding work done by ROs and referees.  The only wish would be the better communications with tower.  And this is where I want to start my list of the recommended improvement.  Position of the tower should be changed, especially if all 100 firing points are used.  It becomes even more essential if 200 firing points are used, because both 100 FPs banks are close to each other, and having two separate towers (like in Perry) would be confusing.  Current tower seats a bit high for providing adequate visibility to either end of the firing line.  Especially on the right side, where visibility even more obstructed.

Next in line - wireless communications to controls for turning targets and to speakers have to be replaced with hard wire.  Manual timing should be replaced with automated timer.

Target frames should be shortened by 4-6".  It is very easy to accomplish.  I can even volunteer to create a jig that will allow for installing it over the bottom portion of the frame using existing holes, and have pilot holes for drill bit for drilling new holes and cutting point.  Yes, it would be manual process, but would not require complete replacement of target frames. 

Target frames at 50Y line should have pins with OD close to diameter of drilled holes in order to eliminate even slight rotation and have conical ends to ease insertion.  Obviously using rotational target mechanisms on 50Y line was a mistake.  Whatever components possible should be removed and repurposed.

Bars that daisy chain targets in banks should be shortened and plastic i-bolts should be replaced with metal ones and have longer thread for allowing wider range of adjustment for individual target.  I hope, that adding rigidity to the bank of targets also will eliminate tremors mentioned by David above.  While this target shaking might not mean a lot for lousy shooter like myself, it definitely can make difference for masters and HMs.  I venture to say difference between 9 and X!

Bars on the ground should be protected from shooters being able to step on.  Simple wooden structure would be sufficient, and the picture posted by Steve T kind of hinting how to do it.  Regardless, there should be ramps installed for shooters to cross firing lines.  Ideally one ramp per two targets.  However, I'm sure we can live with one per five or even ten.  Especially if wooden bar (it is an absolute must regardless of everything else!) in front of targets fully covered (2x6 or 2x8 board), target frames shortened and extra wooden blocks removed.

Now the big item.  Target lines should be moved.  I hope, that concrete pads at both 25Y & 50Y extend below wooden barrier.  If that is true, it might be sufficient and allow for avoiding costly construction.  New location for wooden bar can be secured by posts placed every so often, - that is IMO, but something more sturdy might be necessary.

Needless to say, shooting tables have to be shooting tables!
I'm sure there are more technical improvements can be made.  I suggest all shooters who were there for Inaugural Match, to add items and remediation suggestions.

On administrative end, I think, better job can be done on scheduling.  Even with two relays and team matches we were done at 13:00 the latest, or just about.  With limited housing available at the base and in immediate proximity, making it to 7:30 start of first relay isn't easy, but also is not necessary, IMO.  Also, with no vendors row (I understand that Atterbury in difference with Perry is quite a functional base!  I hope, this can be addressed somehow in the future.  I.e. there is ample of idle territories just outside of the base's gate on Hospital Rd.) there is not much to do once we done shooting on any particular day.  On a flip side this provided for unparalleled camaraderie among shooters.  Separate thank you to All Guards Team for bringing their Gunsmith, - he was the only and last resource for those in need.

And one more item!  It was a Shooting Marathon starting from Cardinal to Atterbury.  While my results desire to be better, I am proud that I was able to complete it.  However I'm not sure I will have enough in me to repeat it next year.  With that, I really hope there is a room for adjustments and grouping events in wider time frame with longer breaks between them.

AP

I was unable to shoot Atterbury due to work and family obligations, but reading this it seems like it could be close to perfect if they changed just about everything. It is unfortunate that the start was so rough.

I think 55” to center would be nice.
4-6” won’t get it!


(Randy Tomac photo)

chiz1180 wrote:I was unable to shoot Atterbury due to work and family obligations, but reading this it seems like it could be close to perfect if they changed just about everything. It is unfortunate that the start was so rough.

no, just tweak a few things and change one or two things.

SteveT wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:I was unable to shoot Atterbury due to work and family obligations, but reading this it seems like it could be close to perfect if they changed just about everything. It is unfortunate that the start was so rough.

no, just tweak a few things and change one or two things.

I agree with Steve.  The weather was darn near perfect, and the line crew professional and friendly.   Most pleasant match I have ever shot in the Midwest.  There is every reason to think it will get even better in the future.

james r chapman wrote:I think 55” to center would be nice.
4-6” won’t get it!


(Randy Tomac photo)

HOLY MOSES! A pic is worth a 1000 words.