Wad gun battery issue

First topic message reminder :

So I have a series 80 Gold Cup that has been accurised, work was performed by a recognized name on the list. In it’s current condition it has Accurails Kart barrel/bushing and fitted fire controls with a very fine trigger, 18# mainspring & 1” UltraDot rides the slide with a 10# recoil spring. I’m shooting Brazos 180FBSWC & 200SWC using 4.3gr of Titegroup and accuracy is not an issue. Function is the issue as it consistently (50-60%) fails to go completely into battery. Often the slide is 1/4” or less from battery except for the last round which hangs up halfway into the chamber every time. The GS says it is my reloads, which may well be, specs are Winchester brass CCI or WLP primers, .463 crimp and .935 base to shoulder. Recommends going to a .461 crimp, when I tried that the cases looked like a fit pregnant woman! I am using an RL550 with Dillon dies and Alex’s new PTU designed for the flat bottom cast bullets. (Works awesome though does require more effort on extraction) Seating die is modified to seat on the outer edge of bullet ont the nose for consistency.  I’m frustrated and hoping to get some help here, I have Wolff springs from 8-18# on hand, chamber is clean. 

Personal headspace is at risk!

Rod

I had a similar problem with loads passing case gauge and plunk test. Suggest trying this: Field strip the pistol and remove the barrel from the slide.  Afterwards take some of your loaded rounds and see if the case rim will ride up freely along the breech face and engage the extractor claw.  If it binds, your brass rim diameter is too large.  If that occurs place a few brass cases in a cordless drill and turn them down with a file until they do and note the diameter.  For me, I found one of my match guns won't run properly on older mixed brass and needs newer Starline which seems to be slightly smaller in rim diameter than other brands for some reason.  I think the breech face on mine may be cut a touch small.   Might not be your issue but it would be a quick thing to check for.

Hello Motophotog7,

I would also check to see if the chamber was finished reamed (or if it was done correctly).  If it was not finished reamed, as the chamber heats up from shooting, the tolerances shrink until you start to get malfunctions.  It explains why the last round in a magazine feeds the worst (the chamber is at it tightest then from a magazine of shooting).

Jim

I have to agree with Wes on your crimp. Honestly that was my thinking when I first saw your photo but wanted to wait a bit to see if anyone else was seeing what I was. For the most part with lead, or my Brazos coated, I'm at a .467 crimp, have played around a little less and a little more, but around .467 works for me. Quite honestly, I've never had a feeding issue up to a .471 crimp as long as everything else is right. Looking at your photo, you do not appear to be anyway near a .463 crimp, especially the round on the left. My .467 crimps look much more crimped than the ones in your photo. Is this why yours aren't feeding, probably not if you can put a straight edge against your case wall of a loaded round and it isn't flared out at the end of the case. You have been given a few great suggestions, namely, extractor, seating a touch deeper, smoothing the entry edge into the chamber, magazine, spring, might want to start with those first. Wouldn't do them all at once, maybe try easiest first, touch more crimp, shorten OAL .010, then take it from there. There is a great sticky article in the 1911Forum in the gunsmithing section on tuning your extractor, also smoothing your entry into the chamber is really a great idea, and not all that hard to do if you are handy and go slow, Just remember less is best at first when doing this the 1st time.

spursnguns wrote:Hello Motophotog7,

I would also check to see if the chamber was finished reamed (or if it was done correctly).  If it was not finished reamed, as the chamber heats up from shooting, the tolerances shrink until you start to get malfunctions.  It explains why the last round in a magazine feeds the worst (the chamber is at it tightest then from a magazine of shooting).

Jim

This contradicts everything I learned about interference fitting bearings or sleeves onto shafts.  When you induction heat a sleeve or bearing, the whole unit expands such that the ID becomes larger and will pass over a shafts whose OD was 0.0005-0.001" larger when both were at ambient temperature.

Wes Lorenz wrote:

Motophotog7 wrote:

Hi Moto,
My .02.
Looking at your photo it does not appear to be a .463" crimp, especially the round on the left where I can see a sharp edge of the case mouth.
Below is a picture of a round measuring .920" w/less than a .466" crimp as measured with this tool I made. Also has a B. Martindale round checker built in.  
You might up your charge a little until you break the pistol in.
Hope this helps.

Any chance you could be hired to make more of your slick guage tool?

+1

Update, function testing this morning with load specs; .920” base to shoulder, .463’ crimp over 4.3gr of Titegroup. Now running a 13# Wolff recoil spring, Brazos 200gr LSWC consistently 1/8”+/-out of battery last round fails to chamber, 1/2-3/4 of the way into chamber. Brazos 180 LSWCFB functions reliably with same failure to feed the last round. Going to try a little heavier charge, 4.4? 4.5? Titegroup is what I have on hand.

What magazine follower(s) are in your mags, concave, flat(GI style), or convex? Standard magazine catch or different (low/high)?

Send it back to your gunsmith. 
Jon

Only change on thing at a time. Then test. 
What is your load? Too Light with a light spring may not have enforce to get it in battery now. If your load is good for the gun maybe the scale is off? 

1) I would back off on crimp 0.685 to .47 is where my kart barrels are happy

2) Try an #11 Spring, Variable springs are not good for wad guns. 

3) Extractor tension too much or too light , extractor should hold the bullet with a timid shake but if you shake it hard and its still in the extractor is too firm. With a dummy round hanging on the extractor if the bullet easily chambers it's likely just right. If the tension is good and its not chambering the extractor needs fitting. 

A new well fitted extractor may make all the difference. 

4)Try a lighter mainspring.

Ok, nobody has mentioned this specifically.  

Your extractor must be fitted and that includes the bottom portion where the rim of the case first starts under the extractor.  When the case is first rising up under the extractor, it is coming up at a positive angle to the breech face (nose is pointing slightly upwards). If there is not enough space between the front and rear wall of the slot for the case rim when it sits at the loading angle at that time; you can get feeding issues as you have described, even with little or no extractor tension.

If the extractor relief at the bottom is not widened out some (usually relieved a little on the inside lower front portion of the "hook")  to create a little "funnel"; the case will wedge while trying to rise up under the extractor at the initial feed angle.  Basically the case wedges itself in the extractor cut and cannot rise up the breech face or slide further up into the extractor to continue chambering. 

You can pull your extractor and look for wear marks to see where the case rim is hitting the face (front) of the extractor hook area at the bottom when it it trying to feed upward. Sometimes this is not very visible, but look at your round and its position when you have the jam and you might be able to see the area I'm talking about.  This is not the flat portion but the forward wall of the slot when the case is trying to feed upwards.  If you pull an extractor from a properly fitted and tuned wadgun and then compare it with a problem extractor, you can usually see the difference.

Yes, I have seen an example from one builder that had no relief at the bottom and similar feeding problems.  They used the "round" body type of extractor rather than the standard looking "bar" type but the comments are applicable to all extractors when fitting.  It's not just tension and nose length, but also the width of the hook relief cut from bottom to top.  Just a little extra width at the bottom can make a huge difference.

Ok, thinking as mentioned it is likely an extractor issue. As for mags, convex and flat followers both have issues, powder bump didn’t seem to help. Going to look at extractor again tonight, if I remember it might be relieved as Cecil discussed above, but maybe not sufficiently, and I little dressing up may be in order. All comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Jon, you’re correct, yet I hate to go that route and suffer through another extended wait.

I don’t know how many rounds he fired in testing, all off sandbags which may have mitigated the issue. I’ll reach out to him again, though he maintains I need to go to a .460-61 crimp for cast bullets…

Jon Eulette wrote:Send it back to your gunsmith. 
Jon

I would follow this advice!
Phil

Before I sent it off to a gunsmith I would text it with 25 rounds of factory 45 ammo.  My ammo of choice would be Federal 185 Gold Medal Match.  If it functions 100% with the factory ammo, then your issue is your reloads NOT the gun.  I am still convinced that you’ll need to seat your bullets deeper and that your crimp level of .466 is fine.

I hope to see you tomorrow, will bring tools