Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

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Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by DirComp on 10/4/2013, 11:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Greetings fellow bullseye shooters, from NRAHQ Competitive Shooting.  I have finally found time to register and join the forum. 

In years past I was a very active member of this forum, although it was in a different format then.  I also was a co-host of the annual picnic, which went by the wayside some time back.

I am now the Director of Competitive Shooting for the NRA, something that this lowly competitor never thought would happen.  However, it has changed my life dramatically.  Although I managed to get to one bullseye match early in the year, the needs of competitive shooting in the many disciplines that I oversee prohibited me from attending additional events.  I will try to do better next year.  As an example of my schedule, between July 1 and August 31, I had 3 days off.

I'll give you a short update on a couple of things related to pistol.

I am still working on electronic targets.  The main difficulty with this is that, because we are on a military base, nothing permanent can be done to the ranges, so the system we purchase must be totally portable and easy to put up and take down each year.  I have made contact with Oakwood Controls, Sius-Ascor, and Kongsberg target systems.  I am constructing a business model to present to the NRA on what the system will cost, what NRA's savings will be, and how long it will take them to recoup their investment.  I'm trying hard to get a system up and running for 2015.

Coupled with the electronic target system comes a question.  Because we will be able to run through the course of fire in a shorter time frame, we can shorten the number of days that it takes to complete the National Championships.  In a previous competitor's meeting and in some side talks with competitors, I was told that shortening the events is NOT what they want, because they want to take full advantage of their once-a-year opportunity to meet with friends and go to dinner with them.  Your opinions?

Budget.  I've looked over some comments before I signed up here regarding what the NRA should do to make things easier and better for competitors.  Believe me, that's exactly what I want to do.  However, the NRA is NOT a giant pot of unrestricted money that can be spent any way that I want to.  Like every business model (just like where you probably have at work), I have a budget and I'm expected to work within that budget.  There are lots of things that I would like to do at Camp Perry but I'm restricted by the fact that we don't own Camp Perry so must always take into account what the military will let us do, and restricted by how much money I have available.  I may be further restricted by how much money the military has available to support us.

When looking at what it costs to run Camp Perry, my budget far exceeds the entry fees that I take in, so the NRA actually ends up subsidizing each and every competitor, even after sponsorship is figured in.  When looking at the costs involved at Camp Perry, please consider the per diem, housing and travel costs of volunteers; consider the hourly pay costs for the range staff that keeps the trash emptied, arranges for porta potties and cleaning, maintenance of the equipment, and provides coffee, water, etc.; consider the hourly rate of the  target crew that pastes all those targets on cardboard and delivers the targets to the range; consider the cost of supplies like targets, cardboard and glue to make sure that you have targets available; and consider the hourly rate costs of the people in the Stat Office to compile and produce results for almost 700 competitors and the costs of their equipment like computers, printers, ink, etc., and this is only a partial list.

Would I like to do more at Camp Perry for you?  You bet I would but I have to find a way to pay for it.  But please also remember that our support consists of more than Camp Perry.  I need to look at how I can better serve the local matches, sectionals, and regionals as well.

Pistol Committee.  The Pistol Committee will be meeting on October 26th here at NRAHQ.  Many suggestions were made either at the competitor's meeting or via email and additional suggestions can be sent here at NRAHQ or to any committee member.  Suggestions sent here should be directed to the National Manager of Pistol, Tom Hughes, thughes@nrahq.org  Your Pistol Committee this year is; William Allen (Chairman), Ted Carter (Vice-Chairman), Kenn Boyd (Chief referee National Matches), Jim Lenardson, Il Ling New, Tim Pawol, Brian Zins, and your secretary is Tom Hughes.

That's a brief statement regarding pistol but I will stand for questions and try to answer them on a timely basis.  However, most of my days lately have been focused on the 2015 World Palma Rifle Championship that we will be hosting at Camp Perry.  Talk about a lot of work!!!!!!!!!!!

Dennis (Denny) Willing
Director of Competitive Shooting
National Rifle Association

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by bdutton on 11/23/2013, 8:00 am

john bickar wrote:
GrumpyOldMan wrote:This thread elsewhere appears to have run its course:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734294

I recommend reading the whole thing. The voices there include those who we will never get to try it out, some who used to shoot BE, and many who have some interest.

Just know that there is some thread drift the last two pages.
I read the whole thread, it was painful.

You asked a bunch of people who don't shoot bullseye what it would take to get them to shoot a bullseye match, and the most common response was (to paraphrase), "Change it to something that isn't bullseye."

No offense, but no thanks.
From the thread:

make it so a 2700 doesn't take all day long.
If there were electronic targets, this would shorten the match time considerably.
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/23/2013, 9:47 am

John Bickar wrote:I read the whole thread, it was painful.

You asked a bunch of people who don't shoot bullseye what it would take to get them to shoot a bullseye match, and the most common response was (to paraphrase), "Change it to something that isn't bullseye."

No offense, but no thanks.
HAHAHAHA....+2

bdutton wrote:If there were electronic targets, this would shorten the match time considerably
...If there were electronic targets is would be a different sport that would shorten the match.

There is a match director in Wisconsin that allows shooters to sign up for just 1 900, and .22s can be fired during ANY 900 even if the shooters that are shooting the entire 2700 are shooting CF or .45.

For the people who would want to shoot for a couple hours, that would work for them.

Everybody but 1 shot the whole 2700.

I still attest that the lower participation has to do with the wider variety of recreational activities and incompatible work schedules that weren't a problem for our sport in the 50s and 60s.

There are fewer matches, fewer places to hold matches, and fewer people who know about the matches.

Denny already assured us that the NRA website will be fixed.  That will help people know about the matches.

When match directors start having to tell scores of people that the matches are full, that will lead to more matches.
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by Guest on 11/23/2013, 11:51 am

Might be worthwhile to submit scores and winners to local newspapers.  Ours publishes weekly trap shooting scores.

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by bdutton on 11/23/2013, 1:24 pm

ChipEck wrote:Might be worthwhile to submit scores and winners to local newspapers.  Ours publishes weekly trap shooting scores.
This is an excellent point.  I almost tripled the size of my junior rifle team this year mainly because of postings in the local new paper.

I'd also add that match and league directors should advertise the matches, clinics and leagues that they run in the local news.
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by davekp on 11/26/2013, 7:35 am

As a retired engineer, with a fair amount of field experience, I just can't trust that electronic targets are going to be reliable at the Nationals. You're in the middle if a BIG field, always windy, sometimes muddy, usually with rain sometime during the week. Two or three years ago, the field I was on had a failure of the loudspeakers.
 Just this past Sunday, at the Denver NFL game, the on-field clocks went out. At last year's Superbowl, half the power to the stadium went out. These are indoor, well protected systems.
What happens if a target or even an entire relay is shot, then a glitch loses the data?
If they can't maintain the current low-tech system, how can we expect to maintain a high-tech?
As far as cost to the competitors, the entry fees are a small part for many of us. The big costs for the event for me are travel (gas plus motels or plane), and lodging (I just can't do the hut thing and the only other available options are motels- the other on-base lodgings get booked up too fast or are unavailable).
I think the best option is to replicate , maybe with some updates, the current mechanical system.

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Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by Jar-hed on 1/10/2014, 8:47 pm

I read this whole thread, and like some other shooters commented, it was painful.  Many of the discussions/opinions aren’t grounded in fact.  To make a really educated decision that we can all feel comfortable with, we all need more information.  Camp Perry is a government installation.  Consequently, the NRA is limited in what they can do.  “No permanent changes…” is what I think I read from one poster.  So, we need to know what is possible, and what is not possible within those restrictions.  I see the advantages and disadvantages of both sides of the argument for and against electronic targets.  The National Matches is a World Class event, and the facilities should reflect that.  I really liked the comment “If we can’t maintain the low-tech equipment, how can we hope to maintain the high-tech stuff”.  I personally feel that the current “system” should be modernized/updated, but not replaced with a system that changes the fabric of the sport entirely.  Electronic targets are proven but only within their established environments.  Is there any other range that uses them that puts the kind of demands on them that we would at Camp Perry (setting up, tearing down, moving, storing, weather exposure, etc…)?  The money spent on fielding that technology (that may or may not be reliable enough), would be better spent on drainage, and paved or gravel walkways to/from and in front of the targets.  GrumpyOldMan wrote that “Scoring IS the big time-killer though”.  Perhaps, but I can tell you for sure scoring last year would have been a hell of a lot faster if we didn’t have to navigate through 25-50 yards of boot sucking, ankle deep mud to get to the targets.  On most days the mud was so deep at the targets that I could not reach high enough to put the elastic on top, and required block officer assistance (also adding time). 

I don’t want to beat up the NRA here.  I just want to make sure the decisions that are made weigh all the facts, are fiscally sound, and make the most sense for the health of our sport.  There is no room here for speculation.   
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by WVBE Shooter on 1/10/2014, 10:05 pm

I don't believe the time excuse.
Has anyone played a round of golf lately.
Your lucky if it's over in 4 hours.

I think it's more about being lazy.
Most people want to do something that is easy and not feel disappointment.
They don't want to spend the time to make themselves better, they want success now.

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by davekp on 4/13/2014, 7:05 am

Dennis,
I entered the national matches on line in late March. The entry form said a hard copy of the match results must be requested- but I couldn't find anywhere to do that. Emails bounced back. I called over a week ago and still haven't received an answer. Can you help?
Dave

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by Dave C. on 4/13/2014, 11:31 am

So,  Are the tagets going to be electronic or turning? 
Aprox. 90 days left. 

Dave C.
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by DavidR on 4/14/2014, 11:23 am

TIMO...They will be the same as they have been only hopefully fixed up some and capable of working thru the whole matches, things move too slow for a undertaking like a complete switch to electronic, that would take years to get approved and implement THIS IS JUST MY OPINION we will have to wait to see if im correct.
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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by jwax on 7/1/2014, 9:48 am

Could the NRA Shooting Director give us an update on Housing at Perry this year? Huts, barracks, any other options?
Thanks!
John

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

Post by Schaumannk on 7/1/2014, 10:21 am

DavidR wrote:TIMO...They will be the same as they have been only hopefully fixed up some and capable of working thru the whole matches, things move too slow for a undertaking like a complete switch to electronic, that would take years to get approved and implement THIS IS JUST MY OPINION we will have to wait to see if im correct.
You can have it good, cheap, or fast, pick any two.

They have torn down most of the huts.  Fifty left they say, and they were booked up the first day.  

You can call the office and ask about cancellations.  Might have some this week.

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Re: Hello Bullseye - L (Disscussion of Camp Perry and other from the NRA Shooting Director

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