When is it time to tell a relative to stop shooting and get rid of his guns?

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If I was involved in a hypothetical situation, and didn't know the appropriate way to handle it.....  The short version is if I have a family member who started to shoot in High School, and is now 75.  He has been diagnosed with MCI (Mild Cognitive Impairment), which as I understand things, is the fist step on the way to "dementia".  He got me involved in shooting a lifetime ago, and until he developed tremors, he shot very well. He has a gun safe in his bedroom, with probably 25 rifles and an equal number of handguns, and a second gun safe full of ammo.

He is finally agreeing to take the medications his doctors prescribed, but as I understand it, this situation is not reversible - it will just continue to get worse over time, but by doing the appropriate things, he can slow this down.  I may have posted about this a year or two ago, but now things are approaching a point where something may need to be done.

His sons, and my other brother say bluntly "no more guns" for him.
To which I respond "what does his doctor say about this?", which greatly annoys them, as if it's the stupidest thing I could say or think.

His memory is now awful, and if he starts to say something, before he reaches the end of the sentence he doesn't remember what the discussion was about.

He had a neighbor across the road from him, who had a huge number of physical problems, and ended them by shooting himself.
This too is on my mind.

Anyway, three questions about which I'd like to understand/accept/suggest/whatever...
a) At what point does one tell a relative "no more guns"?
b) What to do about the 50 or so guns he already has?
c) Am I so wrong in thinking his doctors should decided this, not his family?

And as a follow-up question about this hypothetical situation, how does one get another person to get rid of his guns, after a life-time of shooting?  Or, is it even right for me to try to do so?

Doctors can't and won't do it because there is no black/white medical test that says one way or another.  This is a family issue, like telling my Dad he can't drive anymore.  It's a tough conversation.

Alternative is, if you can access the safe, simply remove the contents.

A doctor deciding (mandating) that someone is mentally incompetent to own guns is a slippery slope.  And if he could decide it would likely depend on his personal attitude toward firearms - ie, see ADA, CDC, etc.

I would think immediate family is in the best position to judge, based on his behavior, conversations, how much he still shoots, etc, as mentioned similar to driving.

This is my personal opinion only. Do not let anyone outside your family make that decision for you. The liberals are trying their hardest to get red flag laws in their states. The worst thing about these laws is that the neighbors and anyone can say you are a threat to yourself or society just because you own a firearm or like to shoot targets, hunt, or believe in self defense.
 Stan

chopper wrote:This is my personal opinion only. Do not let anyone outside your family make that decision for you. The liberals are trying their hardest to get red flag laws in their states. The worst thing about these laws is that the neighbors and anyone can say you are a threat to yourself or society just because you own a firearm or like to shoot targets, hunt, or believe in self defense.
 Stan

You are very right. My parents are 86. The doctors say my dad has dementia. It started getting bad about 5 years ago. His memory problems started before that. Dementia seems to affect different people different ways. Shortly after we stopped my dad from driving he would have fits of anger and then not remember them. I believe he was getting frustrated that he could no longer do things he knew he used to do. I told my mother that the guns had to go for both of their safety. We did not tell him and they all just disappeared to my gun safe. He doesn't remember the comb to his gun safe, but he has moments of clarity and I didn't want to risk it. Dementia is an insidious way to have live out the end of your life. Even though you want help them keeping the guns around is not a good idea in my mind. If there is an incident and emergency personnel are in volved it will be totally out of your control. My2 cents.

I seriously don't envy you in the situation. I vividly remember trying to stop my Dad driving once he was becoming dangerous.

One thing that springs to mind - given the memory issues. Can you not change the combo on the gun safe? Then 'help' him get something out when he's supervised. Then change it again. Just a thought.

It's a brutal way to look at it - but at least it tends not to last too long. It's soul destroying for everyone involved.

Mike
I am truly sorry to hear about your hypothetical friend. My father in law had dementia and it was an easy decision to remove firearms from the home. We didn’t need a doctor to tell us. However, I do think that it is a good question to ask his doctor, but I suspect that the answer is going to be that firearms aren’t for people who are judgment-impaired.

My view is that politics are not an appropriate consideration in seeking medical advice. A person’s dignity, health, enjoyment of life, personal relationships are all at issue in this decision. And I didn’t even mention safety.  On balance, you can assuage hurt feelings (or avoid them completely by simply removing the items as we did and he was none the wiser) but a firearm incident is irreversible. I will offer one other option and that is to disable the firing system - remove the firing pin and spring. I considered that with my father’s firearms. Fortunately his issues did not involve mental impairment. Had they, I knew that he would commit suicide while he was still able.

Prayers for you and your family.
Rod

In my family's case, the "Point" came when our father "SAW SOMETHING" in the basement of the house and sent a load of #6 shot from the .410 down the stairs into the the side of the furnace. 
We still don't know what that "SOMETHING" was.

When he/she either demonstrates unsafe operation or has to be institutionalized.

Having went thru this with 3 family members I would venture my 2 cents as stating that the problem will probably solve itself. At the care center for my family members they had a very simple combination on the exit doors. If a patient could remember the code they could leave and be trusted to walk about. If not they couldn't. I venture the combination on a gun safe would be just as capable of sorting use. 
 I am not a doctor nor have I ever stayed at a Holiday Inn..

At one point, my grandfather had some kind of disorder where his brain chemistry was messed up. (I was maybe 10 at the time, so I learned much of this after the fact.) When he would have an episode/whatever, he would grab one of his long guns and declare, "I'm gonna kill that boy!" before leaving and driving off, tires spitting gravel. "That boy" was my father. My grandmother would call the sheriff (pre-911), let him know what was going on, and a deputy would go looking for my dad to warn him.

To cope with the situation until grandpa was properly medicated, the sheriff (I think) suggested my grandmother hide his guns. But there was no way he would have not noticed even one being moved (and flying into a rage, etc.) so she was told to unload the guns and tuck the ammunition away when he wasn't around. I don't know what was ever done, but my dad wasn't gunned down, my grandfather got better, and those guns never moved from the display case.

Because I am a fan of dignity, I would at least attempt to have the conversation with him about getting rid of the guns or safeguarding them. You could even take the handing down your legacy tack ("Uncle Ray, is it time to bestow your favorite rifle on me, your favorite niece?"). Make it a conversation of equals, not some young pup telling the old man you're too old and I'm taking your stuff because I know better.

If a quiet removal of ammo/firing pins/weapons needs to happen later, at least you'll sleep better knowing you acted with respect and integrity.

Mike, I’m impressed by every response, good perspectives and honest, solid info. It occurred to me that “taking away his guns” or preventing his access doesn’t mean that he can’t still shoot or enjoy fawning over his favorites. Just that he have a companion to help ensure his and other’s safety.

It sounds like he is a very responsible gun owner, based on having ammo separate and locked up from his guns. That bodes well for having a sit down conversation, an act that honors and respects his responsible nature and is dignified.

Still I’m torn up for you and for others who have and are experiencing these challenges. So very sorry. Good on you for seeking advice.

I am glad to see a lot of thoughtful responses.
Remember, this is not about politics, it is about safety. As a physician, I can tell you that the decision to limit a persons ability to do things he/she likes to do or wants to do is a difficult one. While the doctors can give you diagnoses, prognoses, and treatment plans, it is really up to the family to decide. Especially those members who are with the person regularly and knows their capabilities.
People who have lost their cognitive abilities, especially decision making, are frequently unable to really respond to what is going on around them. We are sometimes fooled by the fact that they can do some things like "they always have done them". It makes them seem more capable than they really are. 
For some things, like driving, there are tests to see what they are actually capable of, using simulators for example.
In this case, the fact that family members are questioning the ability of the person to function well enough to keep guns is usually a good sign that it is time to remove them. As was mentioned above, he may still be able to shoot in a supervised situation even if he can't be relied on to always have his guns available.
In my opinion, it is better to err on the safe side, than to wait for an event that can't be reversed.

A few comments, and thanks for posting all these ideas.

• Other than his wife, no family members have access to the gun safes, or even know the combination for the locks.
  
• The only one in this hypothetical family that knows about guns is me; everyone else "hates" them.
  
• I've got no access to the safe, and there are too many guns to deal with, and I wouldn't "just remove them".
  
• He has lots of issues, but as of December 2021 he was still shooting at targets.
  
• He wants to get work done on some rifles, and to his Python (new style)
  
• I don't think he is now "mentally incompetent to own guns"
  
• He now has MCI, not "dementia".  (Mild Cognitive Impairment)
  
• He only goes to the range now with me, or one of his close friends.
  
• He dry-fires fairly often, and takes out the guns to hold them.
  
• I agree that "(his) dignity, health, enjoyment of life, personal relationships are all at issue "
  
• At some point I agree with "I would at least attempt to have the conversation with him about getting rid of the guns or safeguarding them. "
  
• My favorite post here, which I agree with "I’m impressed by every response, good perspectives and honest, solid info. It occurred to me that “taking away his guns” or preventing his access doesn’t mean that he can’t still shoot or enjoy fawning over his favorites. Just that he have a companion to help ensure his and other’s safety. "
  
• This is correct, and that person is his wife. "While the doctors can give you diagnoses, prognoses, and treatment plans, it is really up to the family to decide. Especially those members who are with the person regularly and knows their capabilities.
  

I see no urgency right now to do anything.  He "just" has MCI, not dementia.  He forgets a lot, but he's still working around his property, driving, cooking, and doing all the other things.  My hypothetical brother has prescriptions for "Memantine" and medical marijuana.  My other family members just say "No Guns!!!!  Not even a Pellet Gun.  I don't think he is at that point yet.

(One other comment - I don't want to be the person encouraging him to go shooting.  We used to discuss guns and shooting all the time.  I no longer bring stopped bringing it up.  If he asks, I'll answer, but as I see it, maybe the best thing to do for now, is not do anything.  At some point, things will change, and the advice you guys posted is very much appreciated.  For now, he's not shooting, only dry-firing when he feels like it.)

Very sorry to hear about this situation. Doesn’t sound like there is a clean solution. Personally, I think the Dr can provide initial diagnosis of a problem but the immediate family has an obligation to him and those around him to preserve the safety of everyone being effected. In other words, the family is still of a sound mind and judgment. If he is allowed to participate in activities that are unsafe to himself and those around him such as having access to LOADED firearms, drive vehicles, etc, then they are responsible for the outcome of any accidents (at least morally speaking, not necessarily legally speaking).

A gun without ammo is just a paperweight. Maybe go through the gun collection and round up all ammo. Lock ammo in the ammo safe and change the lock or just sell the ammo.
Maybe change the locks on both safes and let him get upset at the gun safe instead of the people who are quietly having the intervention.

Best of luck to you and all involved.

-Trevor

I'd like to say that my previous post was not meant to come off as political, but to say nobody should tell a family what to do, only give advice. Re-read my first 2 sentences of that post. 
 The rest of that post is waiting for everyone and anyone who does not want to take care of their families and events that affect them and the public, because a governing body eventually will. I think a lot of people these days want an "authority" to tell them what to do so they can't be blamed if something bad happens.
 Mike it sounds like your brother is taking some mind altering prescribed drugs that could be causing some forgetfulness. Does he need them or could he use a different type of medication. Would rehabilitation be an answer, or natural herbal be a solution. If it was my family member I would talk to them and to all concerned, because I would appreciate it if they would do the same for me when my time comes. These are my opinions everyone.
 Stan

chopper wrote:........Mike it sounds like your brother is taking some mind altering prescribed drugs that could be causing some forgetfulness. Does he need them or could he use a different type of medication. Would rehabilitation be an answer, or natural herbal be a solution. If it was my family member I would talk to them and to all concerned, because I would appreciate it if they would do the same for me when my time comes.......

He has been diagnosed as having MCI (Mild Cognitive Impairment) and has been able to pretty much do whatever he used to do.
The medication I mentioned, Memantine, is designed to slow the transition from MCI to Dementia.  He is supposed to take that, and "medical marijuana".  
Apparently nothing can be done, and there is no way to "go backwards".  I accept what his doctors have said, and my own doctor agrees.
I feel that as long as he only had MCI, he could continue to lead a semi-normal life, but somewhere along that transition, many things need to change.

Did any of you who might have been in a similar situation actually explain all this to your relative?
His doctor finally scared him into taking the medications, but it's now a little over a year since the MCI diagnosis.
I don't want to even bring this up with him, until/unless I know that doing so won't make things even worse.

Are there organizations that take gun collections, and sell the guns?  That would take the guns out of his home, and he and his wife could use the money for other things.

Sorry, Mike I didn't know it was prescribed for the MCI. 
 We had a similar situation with my mother when she had her first stroke. We tried to get her to quit cigarette smoking. We pleaded with her, then we got the doctor to order her to quit.  
 It was a couple of years later she was diagnosed with Dementia and had to go to a nursing facility when we couldn't take care of her. Leaving her home was the hardest part. 
 You'll have to do the same some time, just pick the time and the way you want to say it to him. Right now it sounds like he's doing okay in his environment and he's not a threat to anybody or himself.
 I don't know of any auction houses in your area, but you could contact Rock Island Auction they have a bunch of auctions yearly, they could probably help you. Maybe they could steer you in the proper way to start.
Stan

chopper wrote:...... Right now it sounds like he's doing okay in his environment and he's not a threat to anybody or himself.......

I agree with what you just posted.  We had a very rational phone call an hour ago.  His memory makes it clear that he still has MCI, but other than that, it was a normal conversation.  He told me he has been dry-firing his S&W Model 19 (new version), and enjoys it.  I wrote his hypothetical wife a few minutes ago, and asked her advice.  She used to want us to go shooing.  The rest of the family just says "No Guns!"  If she approves, when I visit, we will go to his hypothetical gun range.  Maybe twice, once for handguns, and once for him to shoot one of his rifles, as I watch.

If your not , his , wife, kids or care taker, YOU have nothing to say.

mikemyers wrote:.... He is supposed to take that, and "medical marijuana"...

OOPS!  Automatic disqualifier for gun ownership or use.  States may be legalizing marijuana for health reasons, but the Federal Government has ruled that its use (does not matter if it is for medical use) is a "no no" for gun owners.  Or users.  There is a line on Form 4473 asking about use of drugs on the schedule, does not matter about the frequency of use.  NOTE:  marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, meaning (among all other things), there is no Federally sponsored or recognized research on its efficacy as a drug.  Maring a "Yes" on this line disqualifies one from owning a firearm, not sure if it also means a visit from the "Men in Black" as well.  Marking a "No" on this line can be worse - lying on a Federal form is a felony.

Do not try to argue this one - ATF has a written ruling on this, see the following:  https://www.atf.gov/file/60211/download

Asa Yam wrote:

mikemyers wrote:.... He is supposed to take that, and "medical marijuana"...

OOPS!  Automatic disqualifier for gun ownership or use.  States may be legalizing marijuana for health reasons, but the Federal Government has ruled that its use (does not matter if it is for medical use) is a "no no" for gun owners.  Or users.  There is a line on Form 4473 asking about use of drugs on the schedule, does not matter about the frequency of use.  NOTE:  marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, meaning (among all other things), there is no Federally sponsored or recognized research on its efficacy as a drug.  Maring a "Yes" on this line disqualifies one from owning a firearm, not sure if it also means a visit from the "Men in Black" as well.  Marking a "No" on this line can be worse - lying on a Federal form is a felony.

Do not try to argue this one - ATF has a written ruling on this, see the following:  https://www.atf.gov/file/60211/download

Good point Asa,
Just because a state has decriminalized its use, does not affect the Federal requirements. It remains a felony in their eyes.
Al

Well, if my hypothetical brother, and his hypothetical doctor are creating a legal problem, that's another hypothetical discussion.  I assume that the end of the first hypothetical discussion will be that he no longer shoots his guns, which is part of the purpose of this hypothetical discussion.  Since I don't have access to any medical information, other than the medicine name he told me, I'm not ready to discuss any hypothetical treatments, or the legality of them.  Meanwhile, if my hypothetical brother crosses the line between MCI and dementia, then one way or another, the hypothetical family will stop him from shooting.

Something else to consider:
https://norml.org/blog/2023/02/06/federal-court-rules-gun-ban-for-marijuana-consumers-is-unconstitutional/