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Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by Jon Eulette 9/28/2023, 2:58 pm
First topic message reminder :
Precision Pistol Shooting. It means something different to everyone who shoots it.
We have differing levels abilities, desire and equipment. I will break down into my three categories;
1) Best pistol and best ammunition
2) Decent pistol and decent ammunition
3) Owns a bullseye pistol probably past its prime and uses either best ammunition or decent ammunition.
Yeah, that’s pretty generic, but keeping things really simple.
From this point forward the focus is on purely shooting the 2700. The 2700 is an endurance event. Typically takes 90 minutes per gun and a lunch break. So approximately 5-1/2 hours not including driving. At the beginning of the match we’ve got plenty of energy and gradually decline as the match progresses. We fatigue mentally, physically and diet or lack of plays a large part in maintaining energy and focus.
Yeah everyone knows this, so you bring a snack in an attempt to do your best. What else can you do?
So back to the guns and ammunition, let’s look at the 45. We have a couple ways that individuals approach the game. The gun is the gun, I’m just gonna leave that one alone. You have your pet bullseye pistols; quality not important for the rest of the conversation, it’s a bullseye level pistol.
What human factor is most affected from firing a 45 pistol? In my opinion recoil. I spend a lot of time discussing bullseye shooting and most of it regarding the 1911 45 pistol. I build them individually and try to address all the factors I can think of that affect the gun build.
One thing I routinely encounter is shooters who will always insist on shooting the most accurate ammunition available, whether factory or reloaded. Typically the most accurate ammunition uses larger powder charges to get the best accuracy.
What is minimum level of accuracy at 50 yards to be a competitive shooter at a match? Well we all like to say “my gun shoot 1.5” at 50 yards” and we use ammunition that will hold 1.5”. Is that the best answer to being competitive on the firing line? At what price does using the best ammunition really cost us?
So historically when we get a new bullseye shooter, and ammunition is discussed, the “old school” bullseye loads are usually given as ‘Gospel’ and further propagate the historic bullseye loads.
So we have the dyed in the wool who shoot the hot most accurate charge giving the best accuracy approach to bullseye shooting.
The argument against;
Effects of recoil; fatigue, flinching, etc.
So finally to my point, the 2700 is an endurance event. The late Jerry Keefer and myself have been proponents of shooting reduced loads that provided good accuracy and reduce fatigue. It’s a strategy to performing better for the duration of the match.
Recoil mostly affects gripping. Take 230 gr ball ammunition for example. Violent recoil that frequently causes over gripping and reduced trigger pull feel. There are some really good 45 wad gun shooters out there who shoot ball ammunition horribly. Zero, Atlanta Arms, Federal Factory ammunition all shoot excellent but at the price of more recoil.
If you shoot 4-5 days a week you condition your body to deal with the extra recoil so that it’s really not noticeable. But most shooters are lucky to shoot twice a week. These same twice a week shooters will shoot factory ammunition or reloads that are at factory velocities and their targets do not reflect the groups of high priced factory ammunition. In other words they are wasting money shooting the ‘good stuff’.
Most LSWC loads are generally being quoted at”4.0 gr Bullseye” or above. JHP nearing 4.5 gr range. Ok great. What scores are you shooting? Unfortunately most of these shooter are SS and below. And a lot of the experts are barely shooting solid expert scores. Masters might even be giving up some points shooting the warmer loads.
I can’t recommend enough reducing your loads. I’m a has been HM that shoots master scores with next to zero practice. The reduced loads really help.
99% of the 45’s out there have 16 twist barrels. I’ve found from many years of experimenting that the minimum charge to shoot 50 yards well from hand is 3.6-3.7 gr Bullseye with 180/200 LSWC bullets. I have shot a bunch of 98 and 99 targets with this load. Less powder is unforgiving at 50 yards.
3.3-3.4 gr Bullseye with 180/200 LSWC bullets for the 25 yard line works excellent. I have shot many 100-10X targets both TF and RF and a couple 200-18X scores using this load.
These loads do not recoil much in comparison to the factory charged loads. My grip is pretty consistent throughout the match. I never felt like I’ve given up points using these charges. They shoot on call.
Now we add fast twist barrels to the scene. I’ve mostly shot the 13 twist KKM barrel and have found I can shoot sub 3.4 gr Bullseye loads for both 50 and 25 yards. I’ve also shot 10 and 12 twist 45 barrels with the same results.
I regularly see someone commenting on how they’re stuck in a rut and asking for advice. Anytime we are in a rut we need to do something differently to get past it. Give reduced loads a chance.
So what is acceptable accuracy from reduced loads? I don’t use a RR very often. If I’m calling my shots spot on I don’t feel the need to RR. Some people live in a RR and that’s ok. Last time I RR 3.7 gr BE 200 LSWC I got 1.75” groups. I’m very pleased with those results. Chase Turner just tested my 230 gr JRN 3.8 gr Bullseye load and it held 10 ring from a barrel testing fixture. I’ve been using that load for years. Why the hell would I use 4.5 gr of BE if it shot tighter groups at the expense of making me work harder on my gripping pressure and potentially having worse trigger control? So I think 2.5-3" groups are acceptable to begin with. When you are upper end expert it's time to consider gun work and refined loads.
Time for many people to open their eyes to what they can do to improve their 2700 performance. Shooting the most accurate ammunition comes at a price and I’m not talking about money.
Give it an honest try. Everyone I’ve converted is shooting better because of it.
One more thing, trigger pulling error(s) is the number one cause of not shooting a good group. If you own an older tired pistol its not helping matters, but trigger pull is why guns don’t shoot 10’s. When I shoot older pistols I can still shoot 10 ring at 25 yards with low X counts. If you’re out of the 10 ring at 25 yards it’s your finger! Maybe reduced loads can help your finger out J
Precision Pistol Shooting. It means something different to everyone who shoots it.
We have differing levels abilities, desire and equipment. I will break down into my three categories;
1) Best pistol and best ammunition
2) Decent pistol and decent ammunition
3) Owns a bullseye pistol probably past its prime and uses either best ammunition or decent ammunition.
Yeah, that’s pretty generic, but keeping things really simple.
From this point forward the focus is on purely shooting the 2700. The 2700 is an endurance event. Typically takes 90 minutes per gun and a lunch break. So approximately 5-1/2 hours not including driving. At the beginning of the match we’ve got plenty of energy and gradually decline as the match progresses. We fatigue mentally, physically and diet or lack of plays a large part in maintaining energy and focus.
Yeah everyone knows this, so you bring a snack in an attempt to do your best. What else can you do?
So back to the guns and ammunition, let’s look at the 45. We have a couple ways that individuals approach the game. The gun is the gun, I’m just gonna leave that one alone. You have your pet bullseye pistols; quality not important for the rest of the conversation, it’s a bullseye level pistol.
What human factor is most affected from firing a 45 pistol? In my opinion recoil. I spend a lot of time discussing bullseye shooting and most of it regarding the 1911 45 pistol. I build them individually and try to address all the factors I can think of that affect the gun build.
One thing I routinely encounter is shooters who will always insist on shooting the most accurate ammunition available, whether factory or reloaded. Typically the most accurate ammunition uses larger powder charges to get the best accuracy.
What is minimum level of accuracy at 50 yards to be a competitive shooter at a match? Well we all like to say “my gun shoot 1.5” at 50 yards” and we use ammunition that will hold 1.5”. Is that the best answer to being competitive on the firing line? At what price does using the best ammunition really cost us?
So historically when we get a new bullseye shooter, and ammunition is discussed, the “old school” bullseye loads are usually given as ‘Gospel’ and further propagate the historic bullseye loads.
So we have the dyed in the wool who shoot the hot most accurate charge giving the best accuracy approach to bullseye shooting.
The argument against;
Effects of recoil; fatigue, flinching, etc.
So finally to my point, the 2700 is an endurance event. The late Jerry Keefer and myself have been proponents of shooting reduced loads that provided good accuracy and reduce fatigue. It’s a strategy to performing better for the duration of the match.
Recoil mostly affects gripping. Take 230 gr ball ammunition for example. Violent recoil that frequently causes over gripping and reduced trigger pull feel. There are some really good 45 wad gun shooters out there who shoot ball ammunition horribly. Zero, Atlanta Arms, Federal Factory ammunition all shoot excellent but at the price of more recoil.
If you shoot 4-5 days a week you condition your body to deal with the extra recoil so that it’s really not noticeable. But most shooters are lucky to shoot twice a week. These same twice a week shooters will shoot factory ammunition or reloads that are at factory velocities and their targets do not reflect the groups of high priced factory ammunition. In other words they are wasting money shooting the ‘good stuff’.
Most LSWC loads are generally being quoted at”4.0 gr Bullseye” or above. JHP nearing 4.5 gr range. Ok great. What scores are you shooting? Unfortunately most of these shooter are SS and below. And a lot of the experts are barely shooting solid expert scores. Masters might even be giving up some points shooting the warmer loads.
I can’t recommend enough reducing your loads. I’m a has been HM that shoots master scores with next to zero practice. The reduced loads really help.
99% of the 45’s out there have 16 twist barrels. I’ve found from many years of experimenting that the minimum charge to shoot 50 yards well from hand is 3.6-3.7 gr Bullseye with 180/200 LSWC bullets. I have shot a bunch of 98 and 99 targets with this load. Less powder is unforgiving at 50 yards.
3.3-3.4 gr Bullseye with 180/200 LSWC bullets for the 25 yard line works excellent. I have shot many 100-10X targets both TF and RF and a couple 200-18X scores using this load.
These loads do not recoil much in comparison to the factory charged loads. My grip is pretty consistent throughout the match. I never felt like I’ve given up points using these charges. They shoot on call.
Now we add fast twist barrels to the scene. I’ve mostly shot the 13 twist KKM barrel and have found I can shoot sub 3.4 gr Bullseye loads for both 50 and 25 yards. I’ve also shot 10 and 12 twist 45 barrels with the same results.
I regularly see someone commenting on how they’re stuck in a rut and asking for advice. Anytime we are in a rut we need to do something differently to get past it. Give reduced loads a chance.
So what is acceptable accuracy from reduced loads? I don’t use a RR very often. If I’m calling my shots spot on I don’t feel the need to RR. Some people live in a RR and that’s ok. Last time I RR 3.7 gr BE 200 LSWC I got 1.75” groups. I’m very pleased with those results. Chase Turner just tested my 230 gr JRN 3.8 gr Bullseye load and it held 10 ring from a barrel testing fixture. I’ve been using that load for years. Why the hell would I use 4.5 gr of BE if it shot tighter groups at the expense of making me work harder on my gripping pressure and potentially having worse trigger control? So I think 2.5-3" groups are acceptable to begin with. When you are upper end expert it's time to consider gun work and refined loads.
Time for many people to open their eyes to what they can do to improve their 2700 performance. Shooting the most accurate ammunition comes at a price and I’m not talking about money.
Give it an honest try. Everyone I’ve converted is shooting better because of it.
One more thing, trigger pulling error(s) is the number one cause of not shooting a good group. If you own an older tired pistol its not helping matters, but trigger pull is why guns don’t shoot 10’s. When I shoot older pistols I can still shoot 10 ring at 25 yards with low X counts. If you’re out of the 10 ring at 25 yards it’s your finger! Maybe reduced loads can help your finger out J
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
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Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by SaraiEsq 9/29/2023, 1:11 pm
john bickar wrote:
(Sorry, I was re-watching that awesome Ohio State win over Notre Dame.)
(traumatic flashback) Alas! My shamrocks wept after that one.
It was an excellent game. Both teams played well.
Go Irish!
NDLS '05
SaraiEsq- Posts : 147
Join date : 2022-09-25
john bickar likes this post
Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by mbmshooter 9/29/2023, 1:46 pm
Rush223 wrote:I have read the 200 gr bullets were softer shooting than 185. I’ve always shot 185 but just ordered several thousand 160s based on my gun builders recommendation (KKM 13 twist barrel).
Your thoughts.
My recollection is that years ago the H&G68 200gr cast bullet was considered the most accurate lead bullet for Bullseye. When Giles built my .45 he included a test target with the recipe of the ammo used to produce that 1 1/2" group. It was his H&G68 bullet over 4.2gr of Bullseye crimped to 0.468.
I have never been a fan of the 200gr bullets and have never used them. However, this info may be helpful for those who are.
Mike
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Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Prescott, Arizona
Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by john bickar 9/29/2023, 2:11 pm
Jon Eulette wrote:PB (that's Personal Best....didn't want you to have to look that up)
Thank you for this kindness.
john bickar- Posts : 2138
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by john bickar 9/29/2023, 2:15 pm
SaraiEsq wrote:john bickar wrote:
(Sorry, I was re-watching that awesome Ohio State win over Notre Dame.)
(traumatic flashback) Alas! My shamrocks wept after that one.
It was an excellent game. Both teams played well.
Go Irish!
NDLS '05
- Never trust a lawyer
- Never trust a Golden Domer
- Every rule has an exception
john bickar- Posts : 2138
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
SaraiEsq likes this post
Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by chiz1180 9/29/2023, 2:16 pm
From the perspective of running a match, people that run (or try to) run super light loads tend to have the most alibis. Regardless of what loads you run, if the loads do not run 100% in all potential conditions, most shooters scores will suffer because of the alibi(s). Whatever approach is taken, make sure it works 100%.
chiz1180- Posts : 1233
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
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Endurance...
by tovaert 10/1/2023, 2:15 pm
I agree the 2700 is an endurance event especially for the shooting arm, shoulders, and back, so is half of that. As my hand fatigues, I see the same thing Jon is talking about (low left, then overcompensate high).
Muzzle movement from improper trigger pull results in accentuated error spread as a function of time-of-flight (ToF). With a 40 gr. .22, ToF is roughly 0.07s to 25 yds and 0.15s to 50 yds. With a 115 gr 9mm (1:10 twist barrel, 850 fps MV), ToF to 25 and 50 yds is very close to that of the .22. Power Factor is roughly 97.8, x 90 shots.
The .45 185 gr Fed. SWC @ 770 fps MV has a 50% higher ToF to both distances. Power factor is roughly 143, x 90 shots. A slower round would have even higher ToF, requiring greater trigger control at the end of a 2700.
So wouldn't you want to use a CF gun with the exact same trigger, grip, etc. as your .45 (such as a 1911 in .38 or 9mm)? Less cumulative recoil energy to the hand for that 900, giving you more reserve for the .45 900?
Muzzle movement from improper trigger pull results in accentuated error spread as a function of time-of-flight (ToF). With a 40 gr. .22, ToF is roughly 0.07s to 25 yds and 0.15s to 50 yds. With a 115 gr 9mm (1:10 twist barrel, 850 fps MV), ToF to 25 and 50 yds is very close to that of the .22. Power Factor is roughly 97.8, x 90 shots.
The .45 185 gr Fed. SWC @ 770 fps MV has a 50% higher ToF to both distances. Power factor is roughly 143, x 90 shots. A slower round would have even higher ToF, requiring greater trigger control at the end of a 2700.
So wouldn't you want to use a CF gun with the exact same trigger, grip, etc. as your .45 (such as a 1911 in .38 or 9mm)? Less cumulative recoil energy to the hand for that 900, giving you more reserve for the .45 900?
tovaert- Posts : 423
Join date : 2018-11-28
Re: Precision Pistol 2700 Strategy
by Jon Eulette 10/1/2023, 11:33 pm
Tovaert,
That 9mm, 38 special for CF debate has been going on since beginning of time lol. I see it a couple ways. If you're healthy shoot your 45. If your ailing and recoil is an issue shoot smaller caliber.
If shooting for fun I'll shoot 38. If shooting for money I'll shoot the 45. Bigger bullet usually makes a difference in scoring. And fortunately I can shoot a 45 pretty good and enjoy shooting it.
Jon
That 9mm, 38 special for CF debate has been going on since beginning of time lol. I see it a couple ways. If you're healthy shoot your 45. If your ailing and recoil is an issue shoot smaller caliber.
If shooting for fun I'll shoot 38. If shooting for money I'll shoot the 45. Bigger bullet usually makes a difference in scoring. And fortunately I can shoot a 45 pretty good and enjoy shooting it.
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
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